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Postby Dokujisan » Tue May 29, 2007 11:19 pm

divVerent wrote:
Dokujisan wrote:XENO's keyhunt tutorial video is a good start. I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but hope that trend continues.


Cool, he now made one too? I actually didn't make a real tutorial, I made it for players who already know other teamplay game modes and want to see some action... a real tutorial video would be cool.


heh, oops. My mistake. I changed it to say divVerent. :-)

divVerent wrote:In my video, BTW, Xeno starred in some scenes - both as good and as bad example,


Yes, I think that was a great idea, to have good and bad examples. I think the overlay text works just find. I think we should all start to brainstorm on what types of things might go into some tutorial videos. Xeno created a thread about that a month or so ago. I'll have to dig it up.
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Postby esteel » Tue May 29, 2007 11:44 pm

Well its important to have both new and experianced players and also to have interesting stuff for both. You need experianced players because they show off skill, have knowledge and are the most active players normally. But you also need the beginners to have a growing userbase and to prosper among other games.

But to get a balance is hard.. i for one WOULD NOT LIKE to have a kinda of auto-balance during the game. That totally destroys any meaning of 'your team'!!! Why should i try my best if i get shuffled into the other team in mid game? Hell if i knew that before hand maybe i should even play bad so i have it easier when i'm forced to switch? THAT is one of the bad effects you call for if you want autobalance. the only autobalance that might work is BEFORE the game. But for that you need a sort of player registry and please remember that skill is nothing fixed.. sometimes you have a bad day or just want to have some fun. I love defending but sometimes i'm just fed up with it and want to attack (which i'm not as good in) or do neither and support by giving coverfire or similar. In such a case i doubt i can show all my skill. So how do you want to balance it? And lets not forget that we still speak about TEAM matches.. one good player can be the base of a team but he can't win alone. Play a few games with a bad team (which many people complained about in this thread) and voila your 'value' in this player registry is very wrong.
All that is to just say i strongly belive that team should still be balanced by humans. Maybe we can add '3min warmup' time in some release. That could be used to balance the teams 'by hand' but please no automatic shit especially during the game.

And leaving during a game happens way too often, its just hard to notice due to the action. On some servers its not that bad, because new players join quickly.
Also sorry to say this (i also do it too often) the moment you complain about the situation, you make it even worse because you drop out of the match for at least a half a minute to type.. Also the sad thing is that its damn hard to teach people some stuff. I posted the url to my CTF guide i dozens of matches but i can't say i see much improvement. Yeah its not as nice as a video but i doubt that a video would have a much huger impact, you still need to get people to watch it. You hardly get casual gamers to do that. But i hope i'm wrong here!!!
I added a simple conversion of my 'basic basics or what i wish someone told me half a year ago' to Nexuiz 2.3. So it should be really easy to point people to it. It can serve as an test to see how easy its to get people to learn new stuff..
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Postby Dokujisan » Wed May 30, 2007 1:50 am

esteel wrote:But to get a balance is hard.. i for one WOULD NOT LIKE to have a kinda of auto-balance during the game. That totally destroys any meaning of 'your team'!!! Why should i try my best if i get shuffled into the other team in mid game?



Oh, wait... that's not what I meant. I also don't like the auto-balance during the game. I'm suggesting balancing the teams at the beginning, before the game even starts. The primary purpose is to make sure the high-scoring players are split up as evenly as possible at the beginning. My theory is that there would be fewer frustrated people due to unbalanced teams, and thus fewer players dropping in mid-game.
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Postby charlesk » Wed May 30, 2007 2:25 pm

Anecdote from this morning. I log in for a quick game on the RBI CTF server and it's Mentalspace. The score is about 200 to 50. Fine, I figure I'll wait for the next game, hopefully it will be better. Then I notice that blue (the leading team) has 2 guys with HUGE scores and the rest very low. The game ends at something like 315 to 72. The winning team had one guy with 167 points and one with 137. Everyone else had like 1 or 2. No, I am not making those numbers up!

Next game starts (Facing Worlds) and again the same two guys are on blue. I ask if they could balance the teams a bit, to which I get a reply from one that "they like being on the same team and don't care about game balance".

That's the problem in a nutshell. It only takes 1 or 2 people with that attitude to ruin the game for everyone.

So I switched to blue and began hindering that guy to slow blue down a bit. It worked, red at least got into the game.

The next game was something like 127-24 when I finally said "screw it" and logged off.

---

Now some constructive thoughts. Some that a few people won't like to hear, but that's never stopped me before. :)

1. esteel's CTF guide is superb and should be required reading for anyone who wants to play CTF. Unfortunately, most people nowadays don't like to read -- they are too lazy. And even worse, most players don't even really care about proper teamplay, they only want to run up their own scores or be on the "winning team".

Don't believe me? How often have you shot a flagholder and been going over to pick up the flag when one of your teammates zips in to grab it out from under you? Happens to me constantly. Why do people change teams when they are losing by a lot?

2. There is too much reward in the game for flag capture and not enough for useful actions taken by defenders and midfielders. This directly encourages everyone to go on the attack rather than playing as a team. It also disproportionately rewards the better players who are able to laserjump across maps quickly, and leads in part to the "run up the score" mentality.

Again, I like to play defence. I usually end up with a low score, and I don't really care, but some people do and they should be rewarded for it.

Consider an example. On Mentalspace, I'm on blue, and a red guy grabs the flag at the same time a blue guy grabs the red flag. Both are dancing around avoiding enemies. I get shot by a red guy and as I'm falling I take my laser and ping the enemy flagholder into the void. He dies so we can score. I get 1 point, and the guy on my team who scores gets 20 or something. Was his contribution to that score really 20 times mine? Why is killing a flagholder worth only 1 point anyway?

3. Laserjumping adds an interesting dimension to Nexuiz, but it also represents the most significant gulf between expert and beginner players. Whenever I am in a lop-sided game, it is nearly always due to a couple of expert players who laserjump around the map and run up high scores.

4. Having a player registry and whatnot would be too complicated, but there are other methods that could be implemented MUCH more easily. Some of these assume that most players WANT to be reasonable and fair (unlike the stooges in my games this morning) and just aren't sure how to do it.

For example:

- Have the server keep track of players from game to game and balance them accordingly. Most people do play more than one game so this should be easy to do.
- Create a skill coding system that people can put in their names, which servers would recognize at game start time and use accordingly. For example, you could put "{B}" at the start of your name for "beginner", "{I}" for "intermediate" or "{A}" for advanced. Or use a numeric system of some sort. Yes, it's voluntary, but I think most people would at least try to be reasonable.
- Make the server care more about relative score and not just numbers. When the score is 125-10 for blue, the next player should go to red even if red has 5 players and blue has 4.

5. Perhaps a better solution to all of this is more segregation of the really advanced players from the newcomers and the intermediates. Right now everyone is always trying to get into 1 or 2 CTF servers. Nil set up a beginner's CTF server, in part due to my request (thanks Nil!) but he took it down once and seems to be away so I can't confirm that it is going to be a permanent fixture. Even so, we can't get people on it.

The problem with CTF is that you need at least 6-8 people for it to work well, and you end up with the chicken and egg where nobody joins a server because nobody else is joining it. There could be features added to the "Join" function to make this easier to deal with for players looking for a game.

---

Nexuiz is a great game, but some work is needed to allow it to live up to its potential. I honestly think that the impediments to allowing newer and less experienced players a fun, balanced game experience are the #1 reason why the playerbase is, right now, fairly stagnant.

As another piece of evidence -- I initially found Nexuiz because two of my sons wanted to play it. They were very excited at first but rarely play any more because they don't enjoy being made into swiss cheese every time they log in.
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Postby old_codger » Wed May 30, 2007 2:59 pm

esteel wrote:But to get a balance is hard.. i for one WOULD NOT LIKE to have a kinda of auto-balance during the game.

Am I right in thinking that the current 'teams unbalanced' message is relying solely on the number of players on each side?

If so could it not be altered, with relative ease, to not be displayed, (or to change the text maybe), if, say team 'A' has fewer players but is ahead in points? As a more general point could the messaging system, (which is already working and implemented after all), be more informative?

I say this because I've been playing a few times recently and I would have changed if I'd known my side was winning by 300-150.

I'm just trying to think of ways that don't mean any significant code changes but do help players act intelligently. The values of the numbers of players and team scores are maintained during games so this shouldn't be a problem to tell people every so often should it? Say, every 60 or 120 seconds when the player numbers is uneven or the point difference is greater than 20% or whatever.
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Postby *HxC*Cuizinier » Wed May 30, 2007 4:02 pm

I don't play CTF, but I got an idea for your problem of unbalanced teams.
Why don't separate CTF servers in two parts, a beginners part to learn to play, then go to the experienced CTF server if they think they got enough skill.
That's already used on DM, experienced use to go on DCC Plain DM and beginner go to the beginners DM.
That avoids to me making too much 30 frags in a row. 8)
I think that's a good idea exept for watching skilled player playing on real. But with videos and demos a beginner can learn much.
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Postby old_codger » Wed May 30, 2007 5:11 pm

charlesk wrote:Anecdote from this morning. I log in for a quick game on the RBI CTF server and it's Mentalspace. The score is about 200 to 50. Fine, I figure I'll wait for the next game, hopefully it will be better.

Those figures don't sound too bad if you join the side with 50. depending on the number of players and players involved.
charlesk wrote:Then I notice that blue (the leading team) has 2 guys with HUGE scores and the rest very low. The game ends at something like 315 to 72. The winning team had one guy with 167 points and one with 137. Everyone else had like 1 or 2. No, I am not making those numbers up!

The trouble with MS is that it's a bit too easy for a team to have 1 or 2 players with shotguns or single firing machine-guns that can stop players successfully negotiating the jumps across. If the other side doesn't do the same it's almost impossible to have an even match regardless of how good the players on the the other side.
charlesk wrote:Next game starts (Facing Worlds) and again the same two guys are on blue. I ask if they could balance the teams a bit, to which I get a reply from one that "they like being on the same team and don't care about game balance".

That's the problem in a nutshell. It only takes 1 or 2 people with that attitude to ruin the game for everyone.

So I switched to blue and began hindering that guy to slow blue down a bit. It worked, red at least got into the game.

Yeah, I've done that as well from time to time in similar circumstances. I'm sure es and others don't approve but when you're faced with a '**** you buddy' attitude it seems the only reasonable response. However, you should give them the chance to change first by repeated messages imploring a change of attitude.
charlesk wrote:Now some constructive thoughts. Some that a few people won't like to hear, but that's never stopped me before. :)

1. esteel's CTF guide is superb and should be required reading for anyone who wants to play CTF. Unfortunately, most people nowadays don't like to read -- they are too lazy. And even worse, most players don't even really care about proper teamplay, they only want to run up their own scores or be on the "winning team".

I'm not sure that's strictly true. I'd say 'some' players. Most people are reasonable given some prompting and a positive approach.
charlesk wrote:Don't believe me? How often have you shot a flagholder and been going over to pick up the flag when one of your teammates zips in to grab it out from under you? Happens to me constantly.

Happens to me a bit as well but I can't say it bothers me at all. I mean, I know I've shot the FC and so does the guy that picks it up. In any event if gets there first he's obviously closer than me so what's the problem.
charlesk wrote:Why do people change teams when they are losing by a lot?

To screw up the winning side, like you and I do :D No, again... I'm not sure that's really true.
charlesk wrote:2. There is too much reward in the game for flag capture and not enough for useful actions taken by defenders and midfielders. This directly encourages everyone to go on the attack rather than playing as a team. It also disproportionately rewards the better players who are able to laserjump across maps quickly, and leads in part to the "run up the score" mentality. Again, I like to play defence. I usually end up with a low score, and I don't really care, but some people do and they should be rewarded for it.

Hmm... yeah... s'pose. Speaking as one of the great 'brainless attack' merchants I'm not sure it's in my interest to agree about that. :D Also, bear in mind that a team gets a quarter of the points for a recapture as I get for capturing it. In maps like greatwall in the past I've suggested letting the other get it and then nabbing them on the way out. Assuming frags are about even it's quite a good way of winning on maps where the entrance is open but large making it difficult for the FC to get away.
charlesk wrote:Consider an example. On Mentalspace, I'm on blue, and a red guy grabs the flag at the same time a blue guy grabs the red flag. Both are dancing around avoiding enemies. I get shot by a red guy and as I'm falling I take my laser and ping the enemy flagholder into the void. He dies so we can score. I get 1 point, and the guy on my team who scores gets 20 or something. Was his contribution to that score really 20 times mine?

Well, bluntly, who cares.
charlesk wrote:3. Laserjumping adds an interesting dimension to Nexuiz, but it also represents the most significant gulf between expert and beginner players. Whenever I am in a lop-sided game, it is nearly always due to a couple of expert players who laserjump around the map and run up high scores.

No, I think that's wrong. I think it's that players that have played enough to be able to laserjump properly are also the players that have played enough to be good players with good movement, vision and aim. The notable exception to this is me. I'm good at laserjumping but crap at everything else :D
charlesk wrote:- Have the server keep track of players from game to game and balance them accordingly. Most people do play more than one game so this should be easy to do.

Servers don't monitor players over maps as I understand it. I might be wrong though.
charlesk wrote:- Create a skill coding system that people can put in their names, which servers would recognize at game start time and use accordingly. For example, you could put "{B}" at the start of your name for "beginner", "{I}" for "intermediate" or "{A}" for advanced. Or use a numeric system of some sort. Yes, it's voluntary, but I think most people would at least try to be reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean. What does the server do with the information?
charlesk wrote:Nexuiz is a great game, but some work is needed to allow it to live up to its potential. I honestly think that the impediments to allowing newer and less experienced players a fun, balanced game experience are the #1 reason why the playerbase is, right now, fairly stagnant.

As another piece of evidence -- I initially found Nexuiz because two of my sons wanted to play it. They were very excited at first but rarely play any more because they don't enjoy being made into swiss cheese every time they log in.

Hmm... this sounds familiar.

http://www.alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=815&highlight=
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Postby old_codger » Wed May 30, 2007 5:21 pm

esteel wrote:I posted the url to my CTF guide i dozens of matches but i can't say i see much improvement. Yeah its not as nice as a video but i doubt that a video would have a much huger impact, you still need to get people to watch it.

On that specific point, es, I mentioned in another thread about having a couple of tutorial demos included with the game. These would cover basic movement and weapon firing as well as health and armour collection. You did something like this a while ago and it was pretty good.

However, I think it could be improved as you obviously had to enter the text whilst playing. Could this not be entered into the config file and attached to a key. That way you could see more action without any pauses. I could help with the text if you like. My English is pretty good - almost as good as yours :)

I would envisage, say, a couple of demos and a couple of tutorials. One, very basic one and one more advanced.

What do you think?
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Postby Dokujisan » Wed May 30, 2007 10:03 pm

old_codger wrote:
charlesk wrote:Consider an example. On Mentalspace, I'm on blue, and a red guy grabs the flag at the same time a blue guy grabs the red flag. Both are dancing around avoiding enemies. I get shot by a red guy and as I'm falling I take my laser and ping the enemy flagholder into the void. He dies so we can score. I get 1 point, and the guy on my team who scores gets 20 or something. Was his contribution to that score really 20 times mine?

Well, bluntly, who cares.


Well, I do agree that this does matter. This has been brought up a number of times on the forum before, IIRC. What the current scoring system does is influence people to ignore defense, because defense doesn't "pay". At the end of the round, when the scores are listed, the defenders will be at the bottom of the list...and that's just not representative of their effort in the game.

To play devil's advocate, some would say that defense is easier than offense, and it sucks to play a game where most everyone is camping out in base. That's a very slow, boring game because only one or two people would be attackers.

So, if scoring were adjusted to reward defenders, it would still need to be considerably less than attackers.
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Postby old_codger » Wed May 30, 2007 11:30 pm

Dokujisan wrote:Well, I do agree that this does matter. This has been brought up a number of times on the forum before, IIRC. What the current scoring system does is influence people to ignore defense, because defense doesn't "pay".

I'd still be surprised if anyone thinks it that important tbh. I understand what you mean by 'doesn't pay' but I can't help think that people would rather be on the winning side than lose. Don't forget that you only get the points if you make the capture... just getting the flag gets you nothing.

I tend to make caps because, bluntly, my movements OK but my aim isn't so I'm more likely to give something to the overall effort if I get the flag and bring it back again. Sometimes this means I have a high score but it often means I am incredibly low because I get it and then can't keep it.

This often happens when the other side has a good defence. On those occasions I TRY and defend but it's often less than successful.
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