Crylink Over-powered.
Moderators: Nexuiz Moderators, Moderators
by divVerent » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:53 am
Current stats on my CTF server:
On my DM+Crylink server:
On DCC's plain server (has only half a day worth of stats yet, though):
Play more on these servers to generate good stats on weapon balance.
- Code: Select all
Nex 0.50409 | . +0.043 +0.038 +0.329 +0.156 +0.221 +0.419 +0.283 +0.778
Rocket Launcher 0.43581 | -0.043 . +0.156 +0.107 +0.195 +0.111 +0.191 +0.400 +0.846
Uzi 0.27695 | -0.038 -0.156 . +0.008 +0.065 +0.191 +0.099 +0.296 +0.782
Hagar 0.22820 | -0.329 -0.107 -0.008 . +0.052 +0.043 +0.263 +0.306 +0.807
Crylink 0.15526 | -0.156 -0.195 -0.065 -0.052 . +0.072 +0.018 +0.335 +0.741
Electro 0.05886 | -0.221 -0.111 -0.191 -0.043 -0.072 . +0.010 +0.246 +0.647
Mortar -0.03949 | -0.419 -0.191 -0.099 -0.263 -0.018 -0.010 . +0.155 +0.667
Shotgun -0.34285 | -0.283 -0.400 -0.296 -0.306 -0.335 -0.246 -0.155 . +0.478
Laser -1.27683 | -0.778 -0.846 -0.782 -0.807 -0.741 -0.647 -0.667 -0.478 .
On my DM+Crylink server:
- Code: Select all
Rocket Launcher 0.74883 | . +0.231 +0.191 +0.185 +0.304 +0.412 +0.417 +1.000 +0.630
Hagar 0.45551 | -0.231 . -0.206 +0.600 +0.333 +0.077 +0.333 +0.143 +1.000
Crylink 0.38627 | -0.191 +0.206 . -0.051 +0.205 +0.071 +0.333 +0.676 +0.490
Nex 0.19176 | -0.185 -0.600 +0.051 . +0.333 -0.286 +0.750 0.000 +0.800
Mortar 0.10543 | -0.304 -0.333 -0.205 -0.333 . +0.200 +0.250 +0.600 +0.600
Electro 0.06137 | -0.412 -0.077 -0.071 +0.286 -0.200 . -0.333 +0.750 +0.333
Uzi -0.26923 | -0.417 -0.333 -0.333 -0.750 -0.250 +0.333 . . +0.538
Laser -0.73586 | -1.000 -0.143 -0.676 0.000 -0.600 -0.750 . . -0.143
Shotgun -0.94408 | -0.630 -1.000 -0.490 -0.800 -0.600 -0.333 -0.538 +0.143 .
On DCC's plain server (has only half a day worth of stats yet, though):
- Code: Select all
Rocket Launcher 0.56124 | . +0.009 +0.238 +0.173 +0.244 +0.255 +0.424 +0.472 +0.711
Electro 0.25749 | -0.009 . -0.143 +0.009 +0.304 -0.036 +0.348 +0.248 +0.437
Crylink 0.25716 | -0.238 +0.143 . -0.043 -0.053 +0.217 +0.189 +0.342 +0.600
Mortar 0.25609 | -0.173 -0.009 +0.043 . -0.120 +0.235 +0.292 +0.313 +0.571
Hagar 0.22901 | -0.244 -0.304 +0.053 +0.120 . -0.087 +0.333 +0.303 +0.857
Nex -0.01536 | -0.255 +0.036 -0.217 -0.235 +0.087 . +0.068 +0.063 +0.385
Uzi -0.28796 | -0.424 -0.348 -0.189 -0.292 -0.333 -0.068 . +0.131 +0.228
Shotgun -0.33206 | -0.472 -0.248 -0.342 -0.313 -0.303 -0.063 -0.131 . +0.376
Laser -0.92561 | -0.711 -0.437 -0.600 -0.571 -0.857 -0.385 -0.228 -0.376 .
Play more on these servers to generate good stats on weapon balance.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
- divVerent
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by Dokujisan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:28 am
ok, this is getting ridiculous. Everyone uses the crylink now because of how overpowered it is and how little skill it takes to be effective with it. This is obvious on maps like greatwall_remix where people just grab the crylink and spray the whole field with it.
I like that the crylink was tweaked, but it just went too far.
I like that the crylink was tweaked, but it just went too far.
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by divVerent » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:56 am
Then how do you explain the fact that greatwall reloaded is dominated by the Nex on my server, and NOT the crylink (which was in the middle, with Nex, Uzi, RL, Hagar in front of it)
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
- divVerent
- Site admin and keyboard killer
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- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:46 pm
- Location: BRLOGENSHFEGLE
by Dokujisan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:06 pm
Div, I dunno. I know that I avoid using it unlessI have to because it feels lame to use (I felt similarly to the machine gun in 2.3).
How do you explain all of the complaints about the crylink? Are statistics the only thing that you consider? Numbers don't lie, but they can be up for interpretation.
All I know is that lots of players on open maps (greatwall and remix are good examples) will use the crylink now to spray the field with fire, which takes absolutely no skill to do and is extremely effective because the crylink is so powerful now. At close range, the crylink is difficult to aim so it stays in balance a little bit (though it's still super powerful). At a distance, it barely requires aim to hit someone. So it's being used as a sniper weapon that doesn't require aim.
What if the crylink's power got weaker at a distance? AFAIK, there aren't any weapons in Nexuiz where the power dissipates as the projectile travels. Maybe this can be the first.
How do you explain all of the complaints about the crylink? Are statistics the only thing that you consider? Numbers don't lie, but they can be up for interpretation.
All I know is that lots of players on open maps (greatwall and remix are good examples) will use the crylink now to spray the field with fire, which takes absolutely no skill to do and is extremely effective because the crylink is so powerful now. At close range, the crylink is difficult to aim so it stays in balance a little bit (though it's still super powerful). At a distance, it barely requires aim to hit someone. So it's being used as a sniper weapon that doesn't require aim.
What if the crylink's power got weaker at a distance? AFAIK, there aren't any weapons in Nexuiz where the power dissipates as the projectile travels. Maybe this can be the first.
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by Dokujisan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:34 pm
I saw this in the SVN log from lordhavoc
Again, I agree that the crylink needed tweaking, but this is just too much. I feel like it was raised 5 notches when it really only needed to be raised 2 notches to be in balance with the other weapons.[/quote]
redesigned crylink primary, may need additional balancing
crylink primary now bounces once, and has a splash radius of 80 on each
bounce, it does not bounce if it hits a soft target, this means that
bouncing shots off the floor directly infront of a player can do about
50% more damage, and if you hit the floor to the side of a player you
can still do a little (about 50%) damage
Again, I agree that the crylink needed tweaking, but this is just too much. I feel like it was raised 5 notches when it really only needed to be raised 2 notches to be in balance with the other weapons.[/quote]
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by divVerent » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:04 am
I think the Crylink is ANYTHING but overpowered - and you all only believe so because it was so weak before, but now is on par with the "useful weapons" (Nex, RL, Mortar, Electro). So the "overpoweredness" is purely psychological.
However, what I do agree that can be changed is its ammo use. I already changed it in svn and on my server to take 2 ammo per shot - that gives it a "usual" damage/cell rating - but maybe the ammo consumption should be increased to somewhere from 3 to 5, to reduce the spamming.
As for shots that weaken over distance - against. The fact that the Crylink is fast and has no range limit is useful to annoy campers at a distance, and we all agree that camping is lame and should be punished
. I wonder how odd would it be if only the outer shots "dissipate", and the center shot stays unlimited. That may be the best from both worlds - it stays equally useful at a distance, but gets less spammy from that.
However, what I do agree that can be changed is its ammo use. I already changed it in svn and on my server to take 2 ammo per shot - that gives it a "usual" damage/cell rating - but maybe the ammo consumption should be increased to somewhere from 3 to 5, to reduce the spamming.
As for shots that weaken over distance - against. The fact that the Crylink is fast and has no range limit is useful to annoy campers at a distance, and we all agree that camping is lame and should be punished
. I wonder how odd would it be if only the outer shots "dissipate", and the center shot stays unlimited. That may be the best from both worlds - it stays equally useful at a distance, but gets less spammy from that.1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again
You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
- divVerent
- Site admin and keyboard killer
- Posts: 3809
- Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:46 pm
- Location: BRLOGENSHFEGLE
by Dokujisan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:40 pm
It's not psychological. All of the regular players that I talk to feel the same way about it. Are we all dillusional? Come on. :-/
Get in a tunnel with someone who has a crylink and usually death comes quickly. The main thing that saves me from crylink death is when they run out of ammo. If they have enough ammo, then I'm just out of luck. If you are in a field and someone with a crylink is spamming in your direction, it's virtually impossible to evade, especially because of the bouncing. You can't even hide behind something because the bounce can come back and hit you from behind. IMO, this is worse than the 2.3 machine gun problem because the crylink has a wider spread and does more damage with bounces and radius damage.
It used to take skill to use the crylink because it was really powerful in close range, but damn hard to aim (there's a slight delay between firing and when the bolt actually comes out). Many considered the crylink nearly worthless outside of that scenario. The crylink merely needed to be tweaked a little bit to get it inline with the rest of the weapons.
Damage is increased
Blast radius is increased
Ammo per shot is decreased
The pull effect.
Primary shots bounce
Bounces + radius damage give up to 50% boost to damage
That's a lot of changes in a short time (though I imagine the last one on the list was probably not intentional).
Different ideas to consider:
Make bounce shots weaker
Increase the ammo use (like you suggested)
Reduce or remove blast radius
Make shots decrease in power at a distance (you can still attack a sniper with it because the spread is small).
While we're on the topic, I always thought it odd that the secondary is very similar to the primary for the crylink. For an "energy" weapon, it seems like there could be something else for secondary to do. I was thinking that maybe primary crylink can be reduced a bit but then secondary crylink can be changed to make it more useful in different scenarios, like perhaps a slower arching shot (like mortar but with a slight spread) for shooting over walls. Imagine being outside the base on greatwall and arching over the wall with secondary crylink shots to try to soften the defense while a teammate attacks. This would make it similar, but different, to the electro. It would be like crylink "rain". You have options to have a tighter spread that is more power or a wider spread that is less powerful but hits more people.
Maybe if secondary crylink hits you, it slows you down for a second. I dunno. Just brainstorming. I would like to see crylink become more useful in different scenarios, but not be so dominant like it's current version.
Get in a tunnel with someone who has a crylink and usually death comes quickly. The main thing that saves me from crylink death is when they run out of ammo. If they have enough ammo, then I'm just out of luck. If you are in a field and someone with a crylink is spamming in your direction, it's virtually impossible to evade, especially because of the bouncing. You can't even hide behind something because the bounce can come back and hit you from behind. IMO, this is worse than the 2.3 machine gun problem because the crylink has a wider spread and does more damage with bounces and radius damage.
It used to take skill to use the crylink because it was really powerful in close range, but damn hard to aim (there's a slight delay between firing and when the bolt actually comes out). Many considered the crylink nearly worthless outside of that scenario. The crylink merely needed to be tweaked a little bit to get it inline with the rest of the weapons.
Damage is increased
Blast radius is increased
Ammo per shot is decreased
The pull effect.
Primary shots bounce
Bounces + radius damage give up to 50% boost to damage
That's a lot of changes in a short time (though I imagine the last one on the list was probably not intentional).
Different ideas to consider:
Make bounce shots weaker
Increase the ammo use (like you suggested)
Reduce or remove blast radius
Make shots decrease in power at a distance (you can still attack a sniper with it because the spread is small).
While we're on the topic, I always thought it odd that the secondary is very similar to the primary for the crylink. For an "energy" weapon, it seems like there could be something else for secondary to do. I was thinking that maybe primary crylink can be reduced a bit but then secondary crylink can be changed to make it more useful in different scenarios, like perhaps a slower arching shot (like mortar but with a slight spread) for shooting over walls. Imagine being outside the base on greatwall and arching over the wall with secondary crylink shots to try to soften the defense while a teammate attacks. This would make it similar, but different, to the electro. It would be like crylink "rain". You have options to have a tighter spread that is more power or a wider spread that is less powerful but hits more people.
Maybe if secondary crylink hits you, it slows you down for a second. I dunno. Just brainstorming. I would like to see crylink become more useful in different scenarios, but not be so dominant like it's current version.
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by Dokujisan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:45 pm
Look, I know it can be frustrating for developers to get feedback from people complaining about everything under the sun, and I'm SURE that game balancing is one of the hardest parts of game development.
I just hope that our feedback means something and doesn't fall on deaf ears.
I just hope that our feedback means something and doesn't fall on deaf ears.
- Dokujisan
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