A Nexuiz development blog

[ai]

I'm not giving you flac for his doings. I'm giving you flac for ignoring obvious flaws in the current communication process and shooting down an idea before fully understanding what is being proposed. I've always thought this community has a bad habit of shooting down ideas very quickly instead of trying to look for potential in new ideas and helping to develop them. This is the biggest difference that I see between the alientrap forum and the nexuiz ninjaz forum.

You've been pointing out reasons why you think the blog is a wasted effort throughout this thread, and why it is beneficial to have half a dozen places to gather information instead of one.

I've never suggested that we should have half a dozen places to gather information (only that it's good to have multiple sources), I've been suggesting to use the resources that are currently available to us, and in this case it's these forums, and I've only been talking about these forums in anagram to the blog.

I do fully understand what is being proposed, trust me. However, what you fail to see is that yes, creating a blog WILL create yet another 'source' and another 'place' to get information. I know that you say it will be the main place to get information from. But what you also fail to see that this forum could be used as such, and even to a better extent if wisely executed.
Meaning, in a blog you can really only give comments, and responding to comments and comments comments will create confusion for some people. In this forum you can BOTH have a 'blog'-type thing AND discuss the stuff being taken up in the 'blog'-thing.
If you have a blog, taking up some dev news and you want to discuss, you would still need to create a thread about that in these forums.

What's so different than having a blog and posting stuff there and having a forum sticky which is locked and post stuff here?
Yes, I do agree that some ideas are being shot down, but other ideas also need more consideration before being seriously executed, while other options that are already available to the community are being taken into account.
A blog would most likely need more maintenance, if it is in the same way the Nexuiz site and the Nexuiz ladder site are done. Green Marine and morfar are maintaining the ladder, while green (last I checked at least) maintained the Nexuiz site, could be wrong about that, don't really know. And a blog would probably be the same thing there, so being in these forums would be less of an effort, one less place to be concerned about.

Now of course, I don't know your idea for this blog, but what I have in mind is a totally new site, if so maintenance will be needed. If I'm wrong please state your vision of this blog so I fully understand how you intend it.

To be honest, I've only ONCE been on the Nexuiz ninja forums, and I was there for at tops 2 minutes. I never saw the point in creating another forum for Nexuiz and dividing the already small community in two. So I only spend time on these official forums, I have no idea what goes on over at that other place. It was also created at a time where the Nexuiz community was even smaller than it is today, so that only made fail to see the point ever so more.
Today, I just don't want to spend extra time on two forums for the same topic. Going here, checking and replying to some threads, and then going over there. It's extra work and I don't want to waste my time. Many people also think like I do.

Now I'm not saying this blog thing is a bad idea, it's actually a really good one, it's the execution of this blog that is in question.

EDIT: Just saw your last post which wasn't there before. I have a simple solution, the search function on these forums. It's very useful and would principle be the same thing, has helped me tons of times and I bet tons more to come.

[Dokujisan]

To be honest, I've only ONCE been on the Nexuiz ninja forums, and I was there for at tops 2 minutes. I never saw the point in creating another forum for Nexuiz and dividing the already small community in two.

People on that forum don't shoot down ideas so easily. IMO, that is the reason that community even exists. They are more supportive of ideas and want to further them. People on the alientrap forum more often tend to shoot down ideas like it's a sport, and that has disappointed me to a large degree over the past two years that I've been playing Nexuiz.

I consider Nexuiz Ninjaz to be a more progressive sub-community of the overall Nexuiz Community because of this reason. Unfortunately, the Nexuiz devs are not a part of this sub-community. I wish they were. Sometimes, there is a part of me that wishes Nexuiz would fork, because I believe more could be done. There are people in the community that could be better utilized to help further Nexuiz. But there is so much resistance to new ideas around here.

The truth is that I hate making suggestions on this forum, because they always result in some ridiculously unproductive conversation like we're currently having. At this point, regardless of the voting poll tilting in favor of this developer blog, I don't expect this project to be supported by the Nexuiz core community, so it will likely end up as another Nexuiz Ninjaz supported project.

I do fully understand what is being proposed, trust me.

No. you keep saying that, but then you contradict yourself. I don't think you fully grasp what is being proposed.

However, what you fail to see is that yes, creating a blog WILL create yet another 'source' and another 'place' to get information. I know that you say it will be the main place to get information from. But what you also fail to see that this forum could be used as such, and even to a better extent if wisely executed.

A funnel/filter mechanism collects content from existing sources, thus replacing them for those who merely want a summary. It is not comparable to other sources. It is not "yet another" because it is in a different class. For many people, it replaces those other sources because it's a different mechanism for delivery of information. It's more organized. It's more concise. It's like comparing a cargo ship and a tug boat. Yeah, they both float on water, but they have different uses.

What's so different than having a blog and posting stuff there and having a forum sticky which is locked and post stuff here?

I've already answered that...a lot, but I will add to it. A sticky thread should really contain a message specific to the forum that it is in. A sticky thread shouldn't be a replacement for a knowledgebase, a wiki or a blog. Other mechanisms handle those functions in a better way and allow the information to be subdivided by keywords, allow for comments to be made without getting in the way of the content, they don't fill up the top of a forum with tons of threads which causes people to have to scroll past to get to the new threads, etc.

I do think the "comment on this blog entry" option should (or could) link to a topic under the Alientrap development forum. So each blog entry would automatically create a new topic on the forum for comments. Not a sticky thread.

If you want to go further with the idea, the blog entry (and the discussion thread) could both link to an entry on the Nexuiz Wiki to house additional details at length about whatever that project is. Each of those three entities would have separate functions.

Blog = quick summary.
Forum = Discussion.
Wiki = Knowledgebase.

But that's an ideal scenario.

Now I'm not saying this blog thing is a bad idea, it's actually a really good one, it's the execution of this blog that is in question.

If you thought it was a good idea, you wouldn't be making suggestions like using a sticky thread on a forum.

EDIT: Just saw your last post which wasn't there before. I have a simple solution, the search function on these forums.

The search function of this forum, quite frankly, sucks. I'm usually more successful in using google site:alientrap.org to find things on here. Even so, forum searching is not the same thing as a tag system. They function differently.

Now of course, I don't know your idea for this blog, but what I have in mind is a totally new site, if so maintenance will be needed. If I'm wrong please state your vision of this blog so I fully understand how you intend it.

I like the idea of a complete information repository for Nexuiz, which could include something like a blog. The community already spawned a knowledgebase in OUNS, but OUNS only exists because the official WIKI isn't maintained. IMO, all of these side projects should be absorbed into the core of the neuxiz.org site...but that just does not happen.


I was just discussing this with pavlvs on the nexuiz.ninjaz IRC channel....

17:24 Doku-Work> I'm playing around with dokuwiki and I'm liking it quite a bit so far
17:24 Doku-Work> it would be a nice replacement for OUNS
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork>
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork> :o
17:25 Doku-Work> or the alientrap wiki...or both
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork> heh
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork> you think ouns needs replacing?
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork> laientrap i can see
17:25 Doku-Work> yeah
17:25 Doku-Work> the guy who runs it (I always forget his name) even told me that he always thought ouns would be a temporary thing
17:25 pavlvs|ATwork> 4m/amoebios
17:25 Doku-Work> and that he expected something else to replace it later on
17:26 pavlvs|ATwork> ah interesting
17:26 pavlvs|ATwork> thing is, he does a ridiculously good job of it
17:26 Doku-Work> I like a lot of the dokuwiki features
17:26 Doku-Work> it has a blog plugin
17:27 Doku-Work coughs
17:27 kamar_> ....
17:27 pavlvs|ATwork> :D::DD::D:DD
17:27 Doku-Work>
17:27 kamar_>
17:27 pavlvs|ATwork> when can i starttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
17:27 pavlvs|ATwork> i really want to do this
17:27 pavlvs|ATwork> (if i havent made that clear )
17:28 pavlvs|ATwork> devblogdevblogdevblog
17:29 Doku-Work>
17:29 Doku-Work> Here's what the blog display looks like by default
17:29 Doku-Work> http://demo.chimeric.de/plugin:blog
17:31 Doku-Work> if there were an official Nexuiz wiki, then OUNS wouldn't be needed, and various people from the community (including amebios) could help maintain it
17:31 Doku-Work> I mean a proper official nexuiz wiki
17:31 Doku-Work> and if it were done using dokuwiki, then you would have your dev blog
17:32 Doku-Work> would = could
17:32 pavlvs|ATwork> <3
17:32 Doku-Work> dokuwiki doesn't use a database, so it's incredibly easy to setup
17:33 Doku-Work> I set it up in about 3 minutes, and an additional 30 minutes to browse through plugins and install them
17:33 Doku-Work> http://www.dokuwiki.org/plugins
17:33 Doku-Work> I personally don't like a completely open wiki system
17:34 Doku-Work> but there is a captcha plugin and a moderator acceptance plugin for guests adding content, or you could just only allow specific users to submit to certain pages
17:35 Doku-Work> it has plugins for youtube vids, flash media player, javascript gallery display (lightbox), etc
17:36 Doku-Work> and it has the name "doku" in it...so it must be cool

[Psychcf]

I'm agreeing with doku here. We have so many bikeshed arguments here, and I'm really starting to get sick of it.

Anybody who thinks a blog is a bad idea knows nothing about how open source projects function, and therefore should be quiet in these kinds of threads. The user isn't always right, and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

What we need a dictator. This person will decide what is best for the game, and someone who is willing to step into a thread and say "ok, this idea has potential. If you guys don't figure it out amongst yourselves in X days, I'll decide for you, and you have to live with my decision".

We also need a real bug tracker. Something that patches can be submitted to, tickets can be associated with milestones, and tasks can be assigned to devs. This way, we have a clear idea of what's going on, what is planned for each release, and what each release's target date of completion is.

This is just getting out of hand, and I don't want it to get to the point where Nexuiz has to be forked. That would just waste everyone's time. So, if the developers (NOT THE USERS) would like to comment on my idea, please speak now.

[shaggy]

Doku, I don't think I've ever seen you fight so hard for something.

I completely agree with the three of the statements.
1. We need a blog
2. People on the AT forums shoot ideas down
3. We need someone to take charge (like a dev)

Psychcf and Dokujisan both make great points. Some people on these forums really need to look at how critical they are.

Doku, I approve your idea (not that my two cents matter )

[ai]

I do fully understand what is being proposed, trust me.

No. you keep saying that, but then you contradict yourself. I don't think you fully grasp what is being proposed.

Open your mind just a tad (with a tad I mean a lot) Dok. I DO, and I say it again just in case you already forgot, I DO and I DO understand what you mean. I DO understand this blog idea but YOU apparently do NOT understand ME. I have never contradicted myself even once during this whole convo, I think you should look into what contradiction really means.
Anyway, with opening you mind I say, take a look around you. This forum CAN be used as the main place to get info. It's actually you who have a bad attitude against critiques and suggestions to your ideas. Yes we shoot down ridiculous ideas and stuff people come up with that are not needed.
However, this blog, if you haven't noticed, hasn't been shot down. Esteel and Green marine like it, many other people do, including me.
No matter what you tell yourself but adding a blog WILL add to the 'sources', it's like you're trying to deny that the sky exists. However (notice the 'however'), HOW this source is used is different, I've said that before and I just said that again.
In that manner, TAKING one of such sources and MAKING it into a funnel, it's the exact same thing only that it doesn't add to that count.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of this convo as you have such a twisted way to see the reality and are blind even to the most simple and logical things. I just don't wanna repeat myself to someone who tells people what they actually know and do not know, when he doesn't even know.

PS. Have you ever stopped and wondered WHY people shot down certain ideas?

Anybody who thinks a blog is a bad idea knows nothing about how open source projects function, and therefore should be quiet in these kinds of threads.

You kidding me? I hope you don't really believe that. I know what an open source project is and how it functions.
Another person coming and telling others that he knows better what they are thinking and knowing than they themselves.

"Anyone who thinks god doesn't exist knows nothing about the truth and religion, and therefore should be shot."
This is exactly a copy of your statement above. Your statement is false and if you don't know it then it's you who should be quiet.

What we need a dictator.

Exactly what the open source projects needs, a one man leader who decides everything which everyone should be deciding. You just contradicted yourself there my friend.

---

So, what have we learned?
I have learned that, no matter what happens, this blog thing most likely will come to see light. However, who maintains it and adds to these blog posts most likely won't be a dev. Meaning, this blog will turn out like OUNS, yet another unofficial place to get info for Nexuiz. Unless it's actually the devs, or someone officially appointed from the devs to be a reporter for them steps up, this will, no matter how you see it or what you're trying to tell yourself, be yet another unofficial source place.

Good luck, and in the future, please try to see why people shoot you down.

[tZork]

first off, tracker is here:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81584
has been for some time.

Sometimes, there is a part of me that wishes Nexuiz would fork, because I believe more could be done.

By all means, forked or not, you are always free to do any changes your heart. head or other body part desires. So plz do, im looking forward to checking out these changes. In the meanwhile the few ppl actually making things happen are busy preparing the next release. Its easy to sprout ideas and support em when you don't have to be the one realizing them. But since all the sources you need are available to anyone, if you believe enough in some idea even when others don't you can do it yourself.

SCNR

Anybody who thinks a blog is a bad idea knows nothing about how open source projects function

what the... f/oss projects had been around for a good many years before some cyberfag renamed hes guest book to "blog" in a futile attempt to be cool. how the the [insert profanity here] can you see any kinda validity in this argument?

[rant]
Let me share my thought on this subject of "to blog or not to blog ".

For the purpose of listing development changes, a forum, news feed, mail list, blog, or a textile publicly accessible... is the the same thing. information. or rather information channels. This is similar to the "Damn, 50 TV channels and nothing to watch". more channels when the content is not enough to fill the current channels are not the way to make things better (anyone whanna watch the 97135th re-run of M.A.S.H. tonight?).

If the information at hand is hard to manage due to it being scathed over many sources, organised in nature etc what's needed is either a system that can sort and compose teh information or a system that _replaces_ (some of) the other.

Only if the Information available is already sorted and distinct and saturating current channels a new one is needed.

another thing to remember is regardless how you reshape the channels, flow, access forms etc. of information, your still dealing with the same ppl as its source/receiver. if they hated your idea of a diaper launcher before a blog, its a good bet they'll still hate it after a blog.
[/rant]

[Dokujisan]

For the purpose of listing development changes, a forum, news feed, mail list, blog, or a textile publicly accessible... is the the same thing.

If I'm gonna haul dirt, I'm gonna use a pickup truck instead of a hatchback, even though they both have wheels and a motor. The details and differences matter.

ai, I know why people so quickly shoot down ideas in the nexuiz community, and it's not because the ideas are always bad. I've seen lots of very good ideas get shot down. It's a common mentality that exists in this community, and it's unhealthy.

I think this topic is dead now. I hope it wasn't a waste of time and gets some gears in motion. Only time will tell.

[Psychcf]

What we need a dictator.

Exactly what the open source projects needs, a one man leader who decides everything which everyone should be deciding. You just contradicted yourself there my friend.

No, I haven't. Every project needs a leader. Maybe 'dictator' has negative connotation, but the meaning remains the same.

As for the comments about the blog not having to to with OSS, here's what I think.

There's three parts of a successful OSS project. Making improvements, fixing bugs, and publicity (letting the public know about what you're doing). Most projects have some sort of blog (or something that has the same functionality, forum, etc) that digests development activity completely. This is important, because otherwise users may think nothing is happening.

Nexuiz doesn't have a dedicated forum for this (or the users don't treat it as such), so the stuff documenting development activity gets mixed in with feature requests and other stuff.

So the solution would ether be to restrict thread creation to moderators, or to create a blog and leave the development forum as-is. If we go with forum restriction, we should have a script pull from that forum's feed and display it on the front page, as well as putting that feed as a link somewhere.

[ai]

@Psychcf:
I meant that the contradiction you made was based on whole your post, not just that line.
I know projects needs leaders, I if anyone should know this (being a 3D artist, working with projects for work, communities and other development projects). I know what you meant with a 'dictator' but the term and the word you used is wrong. Instead you might want to say what Nexuiz need is democracy, and frankly that's what is has. A dictator doesn't listen to anyone but does as he pleases, gives orders and just go on with his stuff. A leader does not act like a dictator, cause he in fact does take the advice from others and also sometimes lets other people vote.

That's why I said you contradicted yourself.

[esteel]

ai, I know why people so quickly shoot down ideas in the nexuiz community, and it's not because the ideas are always bad. I've seen lots of very good ideas get shot down. It's a common mentality that exists in this community, and it's unhealthy.

I think this topic is dead now. I hope it wasn't a waste of time and gets some gears in motion. Only time will tell.

I think thats not true.. as i mentioned in an other topic, people need to be sure about a thing to put lots of work and hours into it. If ideas get judged by others they can prove themselfs to be worth working on.
Despite i think people like divVerent showed support for your idea and he presented the current state of the development via the new file changes-since-last-version which IS/will be updated as Nexuiz goes its way to the next version and i pointed you to a link that will always show the current version of that file! Its a good way to stay informed about what is new and needs testing on some of the svn test servers!
As for stuff being done by others AI mentioned that for example the chat dialog was not even shown in the 'screenshots of what you are doning' thread or at least it was missed by several people on irc/forum. I agree that it would be nice to get people to share info on what they are doing but i also agree that having too many places to look for would be bad.

And why do you stick so close to your idea with the blog? Why not just use the ouns wiki or the nexuiz wiki (or ask for the pwd for the alientrap wiki) and start with a simple page? They already exist and sometimes people just need to be pointed to something to use it. Despite people only have limited time, why not just start with an small page in one of the wikis and copy/paste most the info from this thread there? I"m sure people would help then. Wikis can be edited by several people and thus are clearly better for this then a forum post but i see no reason to think blog all the way just because its a cool word..

I think you might mistake critique for an attack on your idea. The idea is good, making sure its easier to be informed about what new and what people work on. Other people pointed out that there are already several ways to stay informed or that some should try a bit harder to inform others.
Maybe this discussion shows that some of the 'ways to stay informed' need to be shut down and a new one started (be it a blog or wiki or what ever). Or maybe simply that there is currently noone with enough time to do it and there needs to be someone to stepup and start with it.

Beg your pardon but this thread is anything but dead!