The value of a community @developers and map designers

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Postby GreEn`mArine » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm

@oskar669:
No idea if I understand you correctly, but for me you were asking for two things (probably meaning the same to you or others as well)

1) More input by the community.

2) Changes made by some developers are probably just thrown in by THEM, are not based on what the community thinks/thought (but what the developer thinks) and makes the game worse in some aspects (your example was the missing "public" option in the menu for example).

About 1)
This is probably starting now. What you have to know is that some things or ideas are easy to implement, some are not. If you had a closer look at the forums you would have seen quite a few posts that start with "new game mode idea" or similar. However, these people have no f*cking idea how to make these modifications, gamemodes, or whatever they are asking for. So instead, some of the regular developers read the idea, and in few cases the ideas are actually good and are also taken over and implemented. But in most cases they ideas itself are flawed (well they are judged to be flawed just by looking at the text description) or there simply is no developer or artist who is interested enough in implementing/realizing this kind of modification. Each developer does this for fun. I've also implemented a few features (tourney mod), but only because I was really really interested in them, and all the other developers didn't bother about it (which is fine!). If anyone would have come to me and asked me for things I don't even bother a little bit (portal gun, race mode, hook, ....) I would not have done anything for these things either. You need to keep in mind that this project is made for free and coders will only code something if they are interested in it by themselves. You can't make them to do things they don't want theirself.

So this was the explanation why it can't be like in your example of the audio app where coding-newbies (in your case: audio experts that don't know how these systems are programmed deep inside but just use it) ask for new features and OTHER coders do it volontarily. This won't be the case in nexuiz. The realisation of things asked for can take a massive amount of time (depending on how much effort is needed for a particular request) and if the ones who could do it don't want to do it, you can't make them doing it either.

However, as divverent left the boat (as captain :D) this forces more involvment from the community (the ordinary players) which is a good thing. These players are the ones who also have these the ideas of usual ordinary players, ideas that they might still miss in Nexuiz. The more ordinary players become developers, the more features you, oskar, will get.

About 2)
There used to be REGULAR test builds of the current state of Nexuiz that were uploaded to a site. These builds were advertised in these forums all the time. The developers can blame all the ordinary players who don't bother reading the forums for any further complaints like "uhh why did you change that [whine]". It's not their fault.

The only thing I was missing, though, was that the new builds were simply tossed out without any further detailed changelog or notice. I would have liked it to see at least the SVN log attached to every new build appearing on the upload site.
IRC quote:
[kojn] I've been coming a bit more recently
[kojn] she took it the dirty way
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Postby divVerent » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:53 am

Alien wrote:http://paste.debian.net/22129/


There is a reason why this option is not included. If that can go in, it will require a BIG warning in the server browser "this is a private server, expect very bad performance, tell the owner to make a listen server, not representative for Nexuiz" bla bla bla.

We do listen to the community. The problem is, sometimes there are two ways to go, and half of the community will hate you either way. This is one of these examples.

As for multi-gamemode server support - it's simply too hard to do with the mapinfo system, and there was NO demand voiced by anyone when the system was implemented.

There WERE beta builds, but after how the community treated me, I no longer build any. There's a click-and-run SVN build system now, use that or forget it.

If the community becomes demanding and not supportive at all, this is what the community gets back. And oskar obviously is part of that problem.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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Postby oskar669 » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:35 pm

I missed the test builds. Have they been advertised on the main download page? I think they should have.

GreEn`mArine - exactly!

I'm not saying "omg you guys suck" I'm saying that I think this game has a potential of being much more popular than it currently is. And the reason for that I think is that the developers are mainly concerned with what they think is good, as opposed to saying: if the majority of the players likes it, it's probably good.

Which way you want to go depends largly on what your goal is. If you want to make the game what you want it to be, and don't care for a large player base, then that is your right of course. If you set your goal to make Nexuiz the most popular open-source FPS (realistic IMO) - then I'm saying you should give in to the majority opinion when it comes to playability decisions - make polls before adding/removing features and so on. - Of course you can't, and shouldn't react to every "lightnings and nuclear bombs pls" thread.

I have never been very active on the forum, so I don't know if there were any major polls on the changes that were made from 2.3 to 2.4 - I just couldn't imagine there were at the time, because everyone I played nexuiz with had exactly the same complaints, and we rolled back to 2.3 pretty quickly.

As for divVerent saying that I am part of the problem, I don't understand that. I never demanded, I merely suggested. You even said people like me are part of the reason you quit - I think you're just looking for excuses here. If you don't like working on it anymore, then fine of course, but how can you possibly blame it on people like me?

I made one negative post that probably was too harsh, and that was after 2.4 was released, and I was truly upset at that time because everything I liked about Nexuiz was removed and replaced with OpenGL effects.

I'm seeing some improvements now - like bots are able to play keyhunt on some servers/maps...
But it seems kind of pointless to start a thread saying "Wow bots on server x got a lot smarter playing kh - awesome!"
Maybe I should, I don't know.
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Postby divVerent » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:58 pm

The new menu was widely liked by players and the outside, and only a minority had problems with the missing options.

And what else is there that changed from 2.3 to 2.4 in a noticable way (that is, not under the hood)? If anything, some engine changes that improve fps for most people - and apparently led to crashes with some card/driver combinations. One can't blame us for that, we don't have like 50 PCs with different GPUs like a game software company would use to test.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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