Extremes For An Extreme Situation

[Samual]

NEW RULE: NO FUCKING TROLLS!..
TVR don't post again, please. This is supposed to be an intelligent conversation. That includes anyone else who simply wants to say "NOWAI."


Right now in the Nexuiz community, there is a group of people who feel the game needs to change in order to grow the competitive community. These people are at the point that they're willing to in a sense "Fork the project," just so that they can remove the features/problems i'm going to list below. I personally do not agree with most of their complaints, but these are the opinions of the majority of the competitive community. We at least owe them the respect to look at what they have to say.

The first list is of current problems which are evident in 2.5 and 2.5.1.... The second is of possible future problems which will influence how the game changes over time.

~~~~~~~~~~Current Problems~~~~~~~~~~
#1: Jetpack
Their view: Most people are fine with the use of a jetpack for race maps, however some dislike the idea of having the jetpack available for other game modes such as deathmatch and CTF type matches. Servers that take advantage of this (Nexican, and select others) are said to ruin the competitive community, because it shows them a ticket out of learning how to move faster. The community proposed that we make the jetpack only available to race maps (And Nexball) and have no exceptions.

My view: Although the point above is a valid one, I think the idea here is that the public servers need to see their responsibility of what they choose to do. For a good comparison, a server could turn off the view tracing method which prevents wallhacking. It would make the game easier to play, but it's still a very bad thing. I think server admins should look at what they're doing to the community when they choose to add things. But then again, I look at the other view. Some people compare the jetpack to the hook, and the hook was taken with the same hate that the jetpack is taking right now. The hook eventually integrated into the eyes of players as a viable fun feature, and is now widely accepted. This pops the question if removing the jetpack would either hurt the community (As removing the hook would do), or if we should simply keep it due to the eventual acceptance of it on the public servers.

#2: 2.5.x weapons
Their view: For the most part, the community dislikes or even hates most if not all the weapons added in 2.5.x.. The tag and camping rifle are usually the least accepted weapons throughout the game. Claiming that they don't add any functionality to the game, and simply are annoying. The majority says we should remove the 2.5.x weapons : HLAC, Seeker, and Camping Rifle. And that we should revert back to the original hook.

My view: *Sigh*... The only weapon that I agree with being useless, is the camping rifle. For the most part, it ruins gameplay due to the auto reload function. This being the only gun with reload, it really stands out like a sore thumb. The fact that it reloads automatically even if you have some ammo left to fire doesn't help. The model doesn't really fit the rest of the game aswell. I propose we either remove the camping rifle, or we change the reload system to not be automatic. (Issue here)

Extra: I've ran into very few people who think the mortars model is too large, as with a few other weapons. They think that the mortar (And other weapons) should be resized to a reasonable level. Also, they dislike the shotorigin in 2.5.x (Which is realistic now)... I don't blame them, as it can be annoying to shoot yourself... but we added a feature to display when an object is going to hit where it shouldn't hit, so this is not a problem. Either way I personally ENTIRELY disagree with both of those complaints... as the weapons seem to be JUST FINE!

#3: Physics
Some people simply do not like the physics..... I don't know why, so I'm not even going to separate this.. I'll just leave it like this: I disagree, I like the 2.5 physics a lot.

EDIT: I forgot one thing....

#4: Random powerups timing
Their view: Essentially, almost everyone i've seen hates this idea. I'm serious, and I really don't know why as it really doesn't effect gameplay that much. They want the old timing back though.

My view: It makes the game better.. so I like it.


~~~~~~~~~~Future Problems~~~~~~~~~~
#1: Nex Nerfing And Replacement
Let me start off by saying I entirely disagree with nerfing the Nex (At least in the amounts some devs want to). There has been discussion to gradually introduce more and more nerfing to the nex, as they claim that it is the least balanced weapon and turns matches into what seems like minsta matches most the time. The main problem here is that they forgot two things.

#1: The Nex has a VERY balanced damage even at 130 (Which Btw, it's 110 now) when compared to the amount of damage you can do with other weapons in the same amount of time. I know any good player can do the same amount or even more damage in 5 seconds with a mortar, versus 5 seconds with a nex. The reality is that the nex has no splash, it has no detonation, so the Nex requires good aim to do anything really. Even most really good players only get 20% to 30% hits on a 1v1.... That's just saying how likely it is. Now, removing spam shots, you would get a much higher percentage for other weapons because they simply have larger damage fields. When you look at the g_balance settings, you can clearly see that the Nex is equal or even less powerful than other weapons. Now, one may bring up "Ok, but Nex is better at long range." This is indeed true, but any idiot knows that if they're fighting against a nex with a rocket launcher, fight in close range! The nex player has no chance in a tight situation even if you're playing against a good player.

#2: This leads into the second point. div0 got his data from public servers, where there aren't any good competitive players. This means, he sees noobs using the Nex more than the rocketlauncher (Which is obviously because they don't know how to use it properly) even though the nex is the same power. I should also point out that the average public server accuracy with a nex is very low. Dokujisan has offered to give div0 the stats logs from his servers, which means we will hopefully get good data from good players. The reality is that most noobs don't know how to use the mortar and rocket launcher very well, so they use the Nex. But even so, their aim is usually not good enough to make a big difference.

What the community wants?

We want to have a settings freeze. In other words, we want the physics and balance of all weapons to remain the same throughout future versions. Now this would not effect the act of adding new weapons (Such as the tuba), however, it would effect released weapons. Since the majority of the server admins and ladder admins i've seen agree with this, if the default settings change to something we don't like, we will use our own settings on the servers. This means ladder servers, private servers, and even a good majority of the public servers would have this underground balance and physics. We hope it doesn't come to this though, as it would make a patchy experience. However, we will do what we must.

I think it's important that we have a settings freeze, as it provides stability to the game. It makes the game feel solid, and it gives a global experience. As of 2.5.1, the Nex is balanced at 110 damage. This is a fine level, and any lower is possibly going to trigger a community settings freeze as I said above.

Settings freezes have exception to situation changes.... For example, if an aimbot is released. But before we change settings or add things, we need to weigh the pros and cons of it.







I'm sure there are other things people dislike, and I will add them as soon as I confirm them. As for now, this is what stands and what needs to be looked at. I want to note that a lot of things the developers do is for the greater good... even if the community may not like a feature, there is always a good reason we add the feature.

P.S.: I didn't add things that I think are absurd and retarded... I swear if you post something that is either of those things, i'm going to kick your ass.

[Mirio]

yet another discussion

[TVR]

... The community proposed that we make the jetpack only available to race maps ...

People are obsessed with enforcing their defaults; it's like they don't understand this is a Free, Libre, and Open-source project, and shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted.

... The hook eventually integrated into the eyes of players as a viable fun feature, and is now widely accepted ...

Except offhand functionality has been removed, R.I.P. Herforst.

... The majority says we should remove the 2.5.x weapons : HLAC, Seeker, and Camping Rifle ...

Each of the weapons outside the nine core DM weapons should not be considered on terms with the core, but rather these as fun extras that keep div0 a developer.

... I propose we either remove the camping rifle, or ...

Camping Rifle will never be removed, it's conception by div0 guarantees its continued inclusion.

This weapon is actually an experiment by div0 to design an aimbot-proof long range hitscan weapon to replace the Nex, its ballistic trajectory and refire rate reflects this.

[tundramagi]

Servers are free to set their defaults as they wish. Players are free to set up their own game and servers as they wish.

Those players who demand that freedom of setting the game up as one desires be removed should themselves be removed.

They do not have to play on the servers that they don't like, but the fact is they want to force popular servers to obey their own defaults so that they can play against lots of people with their defaults. The thing is those players would rather play with the defaults that the popular servers provide because those players ENJOY the game better that way.

They desire to control and increase their own enjoyment at the expense of the developers and most other players.

[Samual]

Servers are free to set their defaults as they wish. Players are free to set up their own game and servers as they wish.

Those players who demand that freedom of setting the game up as one desires be removed should themselves be removed.

They do not have to play on the servers that they don't like, but the fact is they want to force popular servers to obey their own defaults so that they can play against lots of people with their defaults. The thing is those players would rather play with the defaults that the popular servers provide because those players ENJOY the game better that way.

They desire to control and increase their own enjoyment at the expense of the developers and most other players.

Well they have a good point though, which is that the servers that promote nooby behavior don't help the players get better at all... Which means the competitive community really doesn't grow, it just stands still.

[TVR]

... which is that the servers that promote nooby behavior don't help the players get better at all ...

People play Nexuiz to have fun, whatever they do is irrelevant and not something to be dictated.

Player towers require anti-competitive behavior, but are significant in Nexuiz' history.

[Sepelio]

I don't like to play CTF with jetpack because I think it breaks ctf for the most part, so I don't play on servers with jetpack enabled. End of.

[[-z-]]

... which is that the servers that promote nooby behavior don't help the players get better at all ...

People play Nexuiz to have fun, whatever they do is irrelevant and not something to be dictated.

Player towers require anti-competitive behavior, but are significant in Nexuiz' history.

I didn't want to jump into this flamewar but I gotta say that comparing player towers to jet packs is apples to oranges.


It's doubtful that a new player would join a server and see players making towers and say to themselves "oh, so this is how the game is played, this is the default behavior"

Compare that scenario with jetpacks and you'll see a reality riddled across the internet with the 2.5 release where new players are complaining about what they ASSUMED was default behavior of the game.


I'm all for server admins having choice in how they run their servers but acting like these decisions don't impact the community is just irresponsible.

[Samual]

My point exactly... The server admins have the choice, but they need to be smart with things like this.

[[-z-]]

My point exactly... The server admins have the choice, but they need to be smart with things like this.

Putting it that way implies they are being 'dumb' in the first place. It's a fine line because everyone has their idea of what's best for the community... or simply do not care what is best for the community and want what is best for them.

Raising awareness of settings and mutators that aren't considered the default is a start.