What is Nexuiz missing? (warning, long post)

[Yoda almighty]

heh

I can make a jetpack model. it never occurred to me that their isn't one. i would also like to try and make a flame thrower model, but that's less important :p

and I was thinking today, and I think i figured out what a lot of the maps are missing.

purpose

a lot of the maps lack a clear sense of purpose. a 3D modeler once gave me a little talk about greebling on spaceships. he told me they look a lot better when they appear to actually do something, as opposed to just random boxes and things. i think this applies to every field of 3D modeling, including map making. it's great to have lots of little details, but what do they add up to? say a factory map, you have lots of boxes lying around, but what are the boxes for? what's in them? who put them there, and where are they presumably going? how are they getting there? and what will happen to them when they get there? all these things and more should be considered when making a map.

and also, maybe there is a story behind the map. is the factory still in operation or abandoned? maybe there was an explosion, and a large section of the roof is collapsed, with burned and twister metal everywhere. (one of the only maps i found like this is "the doom that came to durwich", with the gem that fell through the building and the ominously suggestive name)

just some things to consider

[Flying Steel]

heh

I can make a jetpack model. it never occurred to me that their isn't one. i would also like to try and make a flame thrower model, but that's less important :p

and I was thinking today, and I think i figured out what a lot of the maps are missing.

purpose

a lot of the maps lack a clear sense of purpose. a 3D modeler once gave me a little talk about greebling on spaceships. he told me they look a lot better when they appear to actually do something, as opposed to just random boxes and things. i think this applies to every field of 3D modeling, including map making. it's great to have lots of little details, but what do they add up to? say a factory map, you have lots of boxes lying around, but what are the boxes for? what's in them? who put them there, and where are they presumably going? how are they getting there? and what will happen to them when they get there? all these things and more should be considered when making a map.

and also, maybe there is a story behind the map. is the factory still in operation or abandoned? maybe there was an explosion, and a large section of the roof is collapsed, with burned and twister metal everywhere. (one of the only maps i found like this is "the doom that came to durwich", with the gem that fell through the building and the ominously suggestive name)

just some things to consider

Wow, I can't believe you said that, that was exactly one of the things I wanted to bring up about the maps but forgot to. They look like extremely random and contrived maze-y maps with no purpose besides being maps (with the exception of desert factory).

I already decided for myself that when and if I dove into netradiant, I would only make maps that made sense in this way. Everything would not just make sense for gameplay, it would make sense in having a believable purpose that was consisent with the same sci-fi universe.

[pain_fedora6]

Quite a point you have there Yoda.

/off topic (DCC DM ADMINS!! pls pls pls include the correct/final version of penthouse and the durwich map in the mappool : ( : ( pls pls pls) /off topic

[FraNcoTirAdoR]

One way or the other, I think we as the community needs to focus on making a few really, really good official maps rather than craploads that are all over the place

Thats right, the problem with most of the community made maps that they just dont contain enough details to provide nice eyecandy, they are mostly focused on some paths that are built up, and not the enviroment. The most typical example is silvercity: look at the original and the new map, yeah i know there quite lot of differences because of the new hiding places but even without that: the routes players use (jumppads to top, or they are long range fighting in the bottom level) are mostly the same, still the visual quality cant be compared. Thats what we need more. I am really really noob to mapping, but if someone knows campgrounds for example, he knows that the main paths are up for a month, but if I textured it and commited it it would be just one of those lot of plain maps, so im working for more than 1 month only on the addition of the details. I know it enlarges the creation of maps by GIGANTIC factor, but this can be one of the crucial way to provide quality gaming enviroment in my opinion. A map shouldnt be just a 1-2 weeks project, that "okey its mostly up, gameplay is final, lets commit".

When someone just bobs past you at 70 MPH, with no clear indication of what he is doing to make that happen or how it is working, your brain can only say "what the hell was that?"

LOOL Yes, "wtf?!?!" is the most frequent sentence that flashes through the brain of a newbie fireing Nexuiz for the first time and playing againt a very fast player, but in the 3rd start "wtf?!" will turn into "cool! how can i do that?". Nexuiz is not a CoD, this game is not made to be popular, but to be a quality arcade shooter, and in the flood of todays shooters (dont wanna advertise them, but everyone can list at least 10 big names where you walk on a gigantic island with super-realistic physics and weapons) people are used to these games, they expect something like those they see on the market. If they think "damn, i want to fight with the same chances using ONLY tactic" then Nexuiz is just not for them, they should try Urban Terror if they want a free CS... This game has a goddamn deep learning curve, and yes, if you are new you have disadvantage if you dont want to get know the game. Its perfectly the same as "i know how to punch, gimme Mike Tyson, I will beat the heck out of him". ("aaaaa where are my ears??" )
It sounds crazy but the problem is not with the arcade shooters (that are far more enjoyable due their high speed imo) but the expectation of the people that shifted torwards something else in the last years.

[Flying Steel]

One way or the other, I think we as the community needs to focus on making a few really, really good official maps rather than craploads that are all over the place

Thats right, the problem with most of the community made maps that they just dont contain enough details to provide nice eyecandy, they are mostly focused on some paths that are built up, and not the enviroment. The most typical example is silvercity: look at the original and the new map, yeah i know there quite lot of differences because of the new hiding places but even without that: the routes players use (jumppads to top, or they are long range fighting in the bottom level) are mostly the same, still the visual quality cant be compared. Thats what we need more. I am really really noob to mapping, but if someone knows campgrounds for example, he knows that the main paths are up for a month, but if I textured it and commited it it would be just one of those lot of plain maps, so im working for more than 1 month only on the addition of the details. I know it enlarges the creation of maps by GIGANTIC factor, but this can be one of the crucial way to provide quality gaming enviroment in my opinion. A map shouldnt be just a 1-2 weeks project, that "okey its mostly up, gameplay is final, lets commit".

Exactly. Maybe the best way to go is to make a "gameplay test" map that is very minimal, like public maps, and test it alot for various aspects of balance. Then if it passes that test, put it on the "approved list", at which point mappers and maybe 3D artists work together to bring it up to official visual quality or better.

Or maybe we could do this with already popular community maps, as long as the author has or can be convinced to release it as GPL.

When someone just bobs past you at 70 MPH, with no clear indication of what he is doing to make that happen or how it is working, your brain can only say "what the hell was that?"

LOOL Yes, "wtf?!?!" is the most frequent sentence that flashes through the brain of a newbie fireing Nexuiz for the first time and playing againt a very fast player, but in the 3rd start "wtf?!" will turn into "cool! how can i do that?". Nexuiz is not a CoD, this game is not made to be popular, but to be a quality arcade shooter, and in the flood of todays shooters (dont wanna advertise them, but everyone can list at least 10 big names where you walk on a gigantic island with super-realistic physics and weapons) people are used to these games, they expect something like those they see on the market. If they think "damn, i want to fight with the same chances using ONLY tactic" then Nexuiz is just not for them, they should try Urban Terror if they want a free CS... This game has a goddamn deep learning curve, and yes, if you are new you have disadvantage if you dont want to get know the game. Its perfectly the same as "i know how to punch, gimme Mike Tyson, I will beat the heck out of him". ("aaaaa where are my ears??" )

I'm only talking about a graphical change now. The physics and learning curve would be the same.

Bunny hopping doesn't look like anything from reality or Sci-fi, so new folks don't know what to make of it, except maybe accuse you of cheating.

But maybe if it looked like it was part of the game, with a stride animation of somekind and/or some sort of ion/jump/pulse boot sci-fi effect, new players would more easily "get it".

[ai]

Well, about striding or not. You would really have to take that up with the coders. I don't know if it's possible or how easy/hard it is to do. However, if support would be added then I could create stride animation for that. But you really would have to talk to the dev coders about that.

[Flying Steel]

Well, about striding or not. You would really have to take that up with the coders. I don't know if it's possible or how easy/hard it is to do. However, if support would be added then I could create stride animation for that. But you really would have to talk to the dev coders about that.

Well the TC and many of the posters here are such folks, but I am mainly just highlighting "a gap in the fence" so to speak, offering a couple of possible solutions and seeing if anyone else has any ideas for solutions.

Because the GH, JP, Laser, even ramp jumping (and wall jumping for that matter) look and feel fairly intuitive and sensical, because the former 3 use a technological means and the later is just a little exaggerated.

Beyond that, bunny hopping just doesn't look that cool imo, especially given what it does, so I think there is room to improve it visually, it is just a matter of how.

[ai]

So what are you saying? You want a different animation to take place for laser jumping and for ramp jumping?
I don't know what you mean with TC, GH and JP.

[Strahlemann]

It's true: The majority of the maps is lacking of purpose.
Why?: If you build a map you often have an initial idea about something you want to see ingame. This can be something regarding the gameplay, like a unique trickjump or a well-designed layout. It can be some sort of setting, like a realistic town, the surface of an asteroid or a underwater cave. Or the map can evolve around a story or "purpose" which in most cases also defines the setting.
Fact is that Nexuiz is a fast-paced FPS game without any story-driven elements, so the focus is definitely on the gameplay-side.

Players who are into the game are focused on playing it and not on understanding the environment. But if a new player plays a map for the first time it's good to give him the feeling of entering an environment that makes sense in some way. He'll then be more motivated to explore his environment and such gets more involved into the game-world. So to attract new players, this is the way to go, but it's optional .

The problem i see is that many maps lack of atmosphere, a defined continous unique style and details. You don't need to explain why there's a moving brush in your map, but you need to have it all fitting together somehow. Having a purpose for such elements helps in this task but is not mandatory to make a good map for Nexuiz.
And yes: Making it all fit together and polishing the details takes a lot of time, which many mappers don't want to invest after they finished the basics of their initial idea.

Art needs time, and without artists (mappers are artists) taking their time, the maps they produce won't be polished, won't involve the player into the game-world and always will have that "unfinished" feeling about them. Still they can be fun, but they could be so much more...

A lot of maps out there are filled with good ideas, some are working with Nexuiz, some are not, but in most cases they are broken by poor realisation on the technical and the stylistic side.
So my advice for all mappers who want to produce good maps: Take your time! Test your map! If you don't feel satisfied with the result, change your map! Look into other maps that work for you and try to figure out WHY they work! (what architectural elements are used to produce a certain feeling? How is it lit? What size is used? Why is it fun to play on it (what are the major gameplay elements)? etc...)
Also take criticism to learn how to make better maps.

That's where i would like to address the players who give feedback: Be honest. Don't be an asshole, but give constructive feedback. I can't read posts like "Whoohoo. Ur m4p r0XX" anymore when it's obvious that a lot of crucial elements for a good map are missing (most of the time it's the texturing, the lighting or the item placement). It's those details which make for good polished maps, and mappers need feedback on those! For example there are often misaligned textures somewhere which just are overseen by the mapper. Point them out! You're not nitpicking, you're helping to improve the game experience!

And we need more modelers to make map-objects

btw.: Comparing Nexuiz to kkrieger regarding the visuals doesn't work, as kkrieger is a singleplayer game, thus gives the designers much more possibilities to guide the gamer's attention and involvement via lighting and scripted events. Nevertheless Nexuiz needs more eye-candy in these days.

Heh... /me posting

[Flying Steel]

So what are you saying? You want a different animation to take place for laser jumping and for ramp jumping?

No, I think those are pretty good the way they are right now, is what I meant.

But bunny hopping stands out to me as needing something more in the graphics department, be it animations, particle effects, etc.

I don't know what you mean with TC, GH and JP.

TC is short for "Topic Creator". What I was saying with that was the person who started this thread asking for ideas and opinions is actually a coding developer himself (Mircea, as opposed to the other "Kitsune" ).

GH is Grapple Hook and JP is Jet Pack. I mentioned these because they add alot of fun mobility and speed to Nexuiz in a way that everyone can see and understand.