What is Nexuiz missing? (warning, long post)

[MirceaKitsune]

A few notes before I begin: This is a long post since I wanted to say a few things, I'm sorry about that. Nothing wrote here is in any way meant as a complain nor a an "I want this now". This may also be a matter of opinions... I started it over a personal observation comparing different games to Nexuiz.

Anyway, this is something that's been on my mind for a while. I tried or played several shooters alongside Nexuiz, such as UT2004, Alien Arena and others which don't come to mind at the moment. However, when I try comparing the look and feel of those games to that of Nexuiz, I always feel something is missing yet can't tell exactly what.

In other words, try opening a game such as Alien Arena, loading a map and walking around, picking up weapons and shooting them, jumping around and looking at the environment. You get the feeling everything is smooth, complex, and feels more natural, while the environment seems more alive. Load a good Nexuiz map afterward and walk around shooting guns... you feel everything is just too quick and simple, the walking very basic, the environment not complex enough (even on the new Aggressor, Stormkeep2 or Desert Factory), even with all visual details set to maximum and eye candy / gameplay candy cvars enabled.

To make a visual comparative: Nexuiz has all modern rendering details a game can have at this date (bloom, gloss, offset mapping, etc). If we take screenshots from kkrieger as an example and try to compare the looks to that of Nexuiz, I think one can easily feel there's something in Nexuiz that's missing. Here are some examples:

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/iwm ... t2x2cz.jpg vs. http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/m97 ... dz3zvu.jpg

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/lm2 ... 7hmklx.jpg vs. http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/2u7 ... vmianf.jpg

(my google images searches here and here for more screenshots to compare)

Although these may not be the main reasons, I made a list of what I think Nexuiz might need to have for a bit more detail:

- Detailed meshes on all maps. Most maps except Desertfactory are made of BSP only, whereas in many games you find details and effects almost everywhere (eg: the map Crash in UT2004).

- More weapon effects. All weapons are static models that bob back when you shoot. I remember when the new weapon models were added (almost an year ago) the Mortar and Rocket launcher had rotating barrels each shot, but they were soon made static again. An idea of a good effect could be: For the Hagar and RL, flames coming out of the weapon's muzzle for 1 second after each shot. In the case of the Electro, blue steam coming out for 1 second.

- More complex camera bobbing. An effect which makes walking feel more realistic in many games is the view bobbing. In Alien Arena the view bobs both vertically and sideways, while in other games the camera lightly leans left and right as well. Also in Nexuiz the camera doesn't lower itself when the player falls from a height (landing viewshake).

- Footsteps. The one thing I always disagreed with in Nexuiz are footsteps being a mutator instead of being enabled by default like in all games. I think it would take away from the simplicity if footsteps were always turned on, and of a slightly higher volume then they are now (especially now that walls cut sounds behind them, so its harder to say they might be used to track people).

- Sounds. Although I like Tenshihan's sounds, I feel some don't give enough realism and effect. For instance the electro ball bouncing sound could be a deep echoing crystal / metallic sound, while the falling sound could be more than a simple footstep (in other games when you fall from up high you hear a grunt and and the player's loaded coat bouncing on them). The rocket launcher could play a mechanical sound after each shot as it prepares a new rocket inside.

There's probably more factors, these are just some of the thoughts I had in mind. But yeah what I'm asking is, what is Nexuiz missing that makes it feel too simple and basic compared to other games? How can Nexuiz be improved to have a more modern look and feel?

[Flying Steel]

First of all, excellent post Mircea! This has been bugging me under the surface as well for a very long time and I agree with all of the solutions you propose. Nexuiz has a more advanced engine in most places versus most games and yet Nexuiz the game still feels too minimal.

The two things that stand out the most to me as weak areas in Nexuiz are:

1) The lack of content polish, from a lack of blender made props in maps or maps built mostly in blender, to a serious lack of diverse and high quality character models (humans and some strange anthropomorphic mutants just don't look like much compared to crazy stuff in Alien Arena and Tremulous). And things like the footsteps and camera movement effects you mentioned make things feel unrealistically smooth.

2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

[Mirio]

2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...
I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

[ai]

2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...
I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

+5

If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way, change it and you lose everything that Nexuiz is. If people don't like this type of play then they just aren't 'old school' material.

And your nr 1 point isn't easy to fix 'just like that'. There have been and is very hard to get good artists to create content for GPL. And even if you manage to get one or two, stuff like real life gets in the way and they'll soon be on their own way forgetting Nexuiz. It has even happened to me on many occasions, which is why I don't create content all the time.

[Flying Steel]

2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz

Yes but what IS Nexuiz?

Some people say it is a FOSS shooter with many features.

Some people say it is a shooter with precision weapon balancing.

Some people say it is a simple old fashioned shooter.

Some people say it is a shooter with special physics.

Some people say it is a shooter with a quality community.

But only the first group is certainly correct in the long term. The other definitions have changed alot already and will continue to change.

if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...

None of those are free.

I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

That simply isn't true, Nexuiz is alot like all older shooters and all other FOSS shooters besides Tremulous, especially when it comes to physics.

It only seems different when compared to the movement physics of modern commercial shooters, who represent the popular trend far away from Nexuiz' archaic movement "style", which like it or not is probably going to be disappearing from default soon anyway.


But either way I do not see why this is a big issue though, the game ships with configs for every previous version of its physics and it has a mutator menu under which a "classic Nexuiz style" physics option could be placed.

[Flying Steel]

If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

change it and you lose everything that Nexuiz is.

That isn't true, Nexuiz is alot more than a physics mod.

If people don't like this type of play then they just aren't 'old school' material.

Yeah well those are most of the people out there. Just look at the most popular FPS games of today, they are not this 'old school'.

And your nr 1 point isn't easy to fix 'just like that'. There have been and is very hard to get good artists to create content for GPL. And even if you manage to get one or two, stuff like real life gets in the way and they'll soon be on their own way forgetting Nexuiz. It has even happened to me on many occasions, which is why I don't create content all the time.

A few notes before I begin: This is a long post since I wanted to say a few things, I'm sorry about that. Nothing wrote here is in any way meant as a complain nor a an "I want this now". This may also be a matter of opinions... I started it over a personal observation comparing different games to Nexuiz.

[ai]

If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

Both.

[Flying Steel]

If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

Both.

Don't bet on it.

[MirceaKitsune]

I agree with Flying Steel. I think the physics are one of the reasons too, the player catches speed too fast and somehow does everything too fast. Imo more acceleration time would be nice before the player catches full speed, and possibly a tiny little smaller sv_maxspeed? I also think weapon switching is a little too quick as it is.

Don't really think such changes must necessarily take Nexuiz away from what represents it, I guess it would depend. If any change to make it better can be done I think it should. Imo the physics aren't what represents a game, but health regeneration is an example of what makes Nexuiz be Nexuiz.

If anyone wants a quick, simple and performant gameplay mode, Havoc was made especially for that. I'd view the default Nexuiz mode as a balance between both good and classic gameplay but also having all needed settings and effects for a modern look and feel. Physics are likely just a small part of the simplicity issue though.

[ai]

You both seem to miss the main point of it all.
Nexuiz is MEANT to be a; Fast paced, old school deathmatch shooter. (Think Quake, NOT CoD or whatever such game).
Taking away, fast paced and old school, you basically just have yet another generic shooter like any other of the millions of games out there.

However, with this I take my leave as the physics will NEVER change to a more realistic CoD type, I bet my life on that. Ergo, making this conversation pointless.