New weapons (and some old one) don't fit Nexuiz

[divVerent]

The speed value is used just to calculate penetration of the bullet through solid, gravity, or when g_antilag_bullets is off (on by default).

The bullets by default are instant hit, with a slightly curved movement path (when firing at huge distances).

[TVR]

With enough polish, Nexuiz 2.6 could be released as 3.0, much like 1.6->2.0.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to implement sweeping changes:

-> Weapon combos are the reason for the weakening of both the Nex & RL, but weapon combos could instead be removed.

-> Hagar secondary could finally be reverted to a usable form.

-> Shotgun could be permanently stabilized to a useful damage/shot value.

... A powerful melee secondary attack would increase its usefulness as a weapon ...

Any potential function of a melee attack is already fulfilled by the shotgun secondary, with a possible 180 damage at point blank.

[Samual]

...

Are you sure? Because at least in 2.5.1, the Rifle has a "speed" value (20,000 inches per second) like all the other weapons except the Nex gun, which has no shot speed value because it is the only hitscan weapon I thought.

Yes, i'm sure. I can see it in the code infact..... "register_weapon(WEP_CAMPINGRIFLE, w_campingrifle, IT_NAILS, 3, 1, 0, WEP_TYPE_HITSCAN, BOT_PICKUP_RATING_MID, "campingrifle", "campingrifle", "Rifle");" - Perhaps this changed from 2.5.1, though. But I assumed you were talking about SVN (Which you should be, tyvm).

Some are good, some are VERY bad... One of the very bad, for example, is the crylink)

Agree! I want my old crylink back! T'was a fun little weapon. [/quote]
Me too ((((((((((

With enough polish, Nexuiz 2.6 could be released as 3.0, much like 1.6->2.0.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to implement sweeping changes:

-> Weapon combos are the reason for the weakening of both the Nex & RL, but weapon combos could instead be removed.

-> Hagar secondary could finally be reverted to a usable form.

-> Shotgun could be permanently stabilized to a useful damage/shot value.

... A powerful melee secondary attack would increase its usefulness as a weapon ...

Any potential function of a melee attack is already fulfilled by the shotgun secondary, with a possible 180 damage at point blank.

.... Removing combos is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.. It's a huge factor of gameplay, and it destroys the fun for good players in Nexuiz. Perhaps people who can't play/don't know how to play/prefer 2 dimensional games can have Nexuiz without combos.. But I prefer to have some FUN with my games. -- I played with the 2.6 balance for a while with a few friends, and we concluded that it's actually a disadvantage to use combos. Basically, this ruins the fun of the game for both of us. I decided I will quit/fork Nexuiz if this happens.

All the other things you said I agree with... -- A new hagar secondary could be the old tag secondary.... Where it "popcorns" rockets into the air and explodes them immediately.

[Flying Steel]

Hmm, well that makes the Rifle even better in my eyes, knowing that it is hitscan (now at least).

-> Hagar secondary could finally be reverted to a usable form.

I find it kind of useful for shooting around corners instead of exposing myself to return fire, or when the guy is around the corner using rockets, electros or sparks to keep me from coming around.

-> Shotgun could be permanently stabilized to a useful damage/shot value.
[/list]

Damn straight. It does too little damage and never runs out of ammo. It should be a powerful close in weapon that eats through an ammo pack as fast as the camper rifle (8 shots). It also needs to use ballistic ammo, not have its own ammo type to itself.

Any potential function of a melee attack is already fulfilled by the shotgun secondary, with a possible 180 damage at point blank.

The laser never runs out of ammo, so you can't really make a direct comparison there.

Plus Nexuiz uses an overlapping weapon model, which leaves room for more than one close quarters weapon anyway. In fact, almost every weapon has a twin- Nex and Rifle, Machinegun and Crylink, Grenade Launcher and Electro, Hagar and HLAC, Rocket Launcher and Fireball. And the game works really well this way. It is one of my favorite parts of the weapon balancing.

[Sepelio]

Why not make another new weapon that uses shotgun shells rather than making it use bullets?
That would be fun, to have another shotgunny thing, and that way it would be a more useful ammo type to put around.

I agree. The shotgun ammo type is largely unused, this was the case with the machinegun ammo too until the camping rifle came along.

[Flying Steel]

Why not make another new weapon that uses shotgun shells rather than making it use bullets?
That would be fun, to have another shotgunny thing, and that way it would be a more useful ammo type to put around.

I agree. The shotgun ammo type is largely unused, this was the case with the machinegun ammo too until the camping rifle came along.

Because the thing with bullets is they need more weapons using them anyway.

Explosives = 4 Weapons
Cell = 4 Weapons
Bullets = 2 Weapons
Shells = 1 Weapon

If you combine the later two then you have:

Explosives = 4 Weapons
Cell = 4 Weapons
Ballistics = 3 Weapons

[Flying Steel]

AI, the scumbag, deleted my reply.

My reply was that it would be better to make an additional weapon that uses shotgun shells than to merge two unrelated ammo types (scatter shot vs singular rifle type bullets.)

Douchebag AI deleted this and everything else I said. I hate AI.

AI: I hate you.

There isn't really a problem in combining two similar weapons into one ammo type for two reasons:

1) The explosives ammo type already does this to an extreme degree. Rockets, grenades, hagar rounds and fireballs all have different caliburs and operating mechanics, but they all use the same kind of ammunition. So good or bad, this isn't anything new.

2) AI, your apparently hated nemesis, made models for ammunition that depict a number of different kinds of obviously very varied ammunition types for explosive and ballistic ammo deposits. This more or less solves this issue of more than one weapon using the same ammunition deposit.

[ai]

Btw, it's 'ai' with lowercase letters, not uppercase.

[Dokujisan]

Odd that only very few community members DO reject them. The majority of the players actually likes these weapons.

See, this just is not true. This has always been one of the major problems in nexuiz ...communication. There is no true feedback channel from players in Nexuiz to the development team. I'm talking about regulars (who hang out in IRC and such) as well as people who regularly play on the pub servers (who don't visit IRC or the alientrap forum). You (div) are known to not be a very nice person to converse with (you would admit this, I'm pretty sure), and that has made the regulars unlikely to bother to give feedback anymore. They just gave up a long time ago on giving feedback. Most of the regular public players don't know what IRC is and have never been to the AT forums.

So you're missing out on feedback from a large amount of players and you're not getting true feedback. As I run the batcaves, HOCTF and HODM servers, I hear a lot of complaints. Many of the players on the public servers mistakenly blame me for changes in Nexuiz (as if I am a developer)...such as, "Doku, why did you add that stupid fire weapon?" or "Doku, why did you put those ghost weapons on the server? They are confusing the hell out of me!" So I have to explain to them how the development decisions seem to work in Nexuiz (in a backroom, closed-door fashion).

While it's often true that people tend to resist change as a rule (human nature), I don't think that is the case here, not when so many people are giving common complaints. I mean I have not heard from one person (outside of this thread) that does NOT think that the HLAC is overpowered. I think that is a pretty universal opinion, or at least a very popular one. Same as when the crylink was overpowered in many 2.4.2SVN revisions. When we brought up the complaint back then, we got the same response ... "oh, only a few people are really complaining".

Very recently, antilag was "fixed" and that caused the shotgun to be very powerful. That is the most recent complaint within the past week or so.

A game like Nexuiz really needs to evolve over time, absolutely. Change can be a really good thing, but only if it is well thought out. All of the weapon changes over the past year seem to be a bit random and just not very focused on improving the fundamentals of Nexuiz gameplay, or in focusing the style on something more futuristic.

I know I'm not alone here.

[TVR]

... Removing combos is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.. It's a huge factor of gameplay ...

Either that, or severely nerfed RL, Nex, GL, MG, & Shotgun.

These popular combo weapons will continue to decay into complete uselessness, but 3.0 is an opportunity to reverse it.

... A new hagar secondary could be the old tag secondary.... Where it "popcorns" rockets into the air and explodes them immediately ...

The TAG seeker secondary comes from the "firecracker" secondary fire I designed for the Hagar.

The basic concept was to provide an function that could safely clear out tunnels using the bounce of the Hagar to adjust to the confines, all while absorbing the most common spammed projectiles (RL, GL, Electro secondary), as well as supplementing the long-range primary fire with the most powerful close-range attack.

... I find it kind of useful for shooting around corners ...

The only issue with the current Hagar secondary is it requires absolutely perpendicular surfaces; it is the only weapon that is affected by wall details.

... It also needs to use ballistic ammo, not have its own ammo type to itself ...

Which would result in a lost in intuitiveness, unsimplified fractions of ammo consumption, such as 10/120 bullets per rifle shot, are confounding.

... The explosives ammo type already does this to an extreme degree ...

Each rocket amounts to ~35 damage per unit, consistent across the three existing weapons.