New weapons (and some old one) don't fit Nexuiz

[Yoda almighty]

there is so much anger on this forum

maybe some people need to re think their mind set about all this. maybe we will get a lot more done that way

and that's all I'm going to say.

[Yoda almighty]

you're not helping either, however.

[Samual]

there is so much anger on this forum

maybe some people need to re think their mind set about all this. maybe we will get a lot more done that way

and that's all I'm going to say.

Some people want to remove things that developers added to the game, those people themselves choose not to be developers themselves (and continually choose that non-path over long periods of time), they are unhappy that the developers do not remove those things that the developers decided to add to the game: they are unhappy that the developers do not obey them.

This is about obedience, the developers are not obeying the pro-gamers, some of the pro-gamers find this gross-insolence disgusting.

If the pro-gamers stopped pestering the developers about removing features that the devs added, there might be less stress on the devs, and yes faster development... but the "pros" don't want development... they want things removed.

So yes, you are most definitly correct: less stress from the demands of the "pros" (sometimes called "the community"), happier people that actually do things, less fear from other people that might want to become developers that their contribution could be ripped out and thrown away at the behest of the "community"/"pro-gamers"/"reasonable people who everyone should listen to and obey".

Actually, I would consider myself one of those "pro-gamers" (Which btw is a stupid term, I prefer to say competitive)... And i'm a developer. I see both sides of the argument, and yes most of the time other competitive players are just being ignorant to change. But some changes are genuinely bad for the game. You see, one major problem with the 2.6 balance is that it is designed from a BAD PLAYERS point of view (No offense LordHavoc.. But when I asked, you didn't even know what strafing is...).. Balance should be designed by the community for the community (hah), with small moderations as to avoid making the game elitist. The unfortunate part is that.. I found out a good portion of the competitive community are lazy.. They don't want to do any work, at all.... This can clearly be seen with my "Design Your Own Nexuiz" thread, where I asked the community to make their own balance. But if the community is the one making the balance, we can be assured that people will like it.. Unlike were if ONE PERSON designs the entire balance of the game. (By the way, almost everyone I have shown this new balance to hates it.. And claims they will leave the game if it is added -- I myself will probably help fork, or leave.. if it comes to it.)

Now, personally I see there to be no reason to add the fireball gun. Sure we removed the tag, but that doesn't mean we need to add anything. To be honest, the fireball is a sad attempt at a gun. It does take no skill, and the balance of it (Although I realize it's still subject to change) is less than fun. Everyone I have talked to doesn't like the implementation of it, although they do like the idea. I think adding this gun would put a wedge into the community even more, and i'm sure it's eventually going to split.

[Yoda almighty]

I have a proposition for the fireball gun.

instead of a "fireball gun" could we instead make it a "flame thrower" with very low range, and medium damage, but damage over time for a set amount of time, or until the player that is "on fire" jumps into a lake. also, we can say that it has very low ammo capacity, so you can't spam with it.

[Dokujisan]

I'm not trying to be rude. I really don't think div attempts to be nice. He just tries to be the best developer he can be. The communication aspect is not really his area of focus. Programming is his focus. He would probably be happier if he only had 1-2 other developers to chat with.

Unfortunately, that isn't healthy for the project if he is the main person to speak with about changes in nexuiz.

[Flying Steel]

... I find it kind of useful for shooting around corners ...

The only issue with the current Hagar secondary is it requires absolutely perpendicular surfaces; it is the only weapon that is affected by wall details.

Well then it should probably be made to bounce like the other bouncing projectiles, disregarding graphical details or whatever. About half of the weapons have attacks that bounce around corners, and if I have understood you correctly, you are saying they don't have this problem.

... It also needs to use ballistic ammo, not have its own ammo type to itself ...

Which would result in a lost in intuitiveness, unsimplified fractions of ammo consumption, such as 10/120 bullets per rifle shot, are confounding.

That seems like it is more of a UI issue though. The ammo readout could just tell you how many shots you have left with the weapon you are currently holding, primary and secondary.

Either way, I don't think the rifle is going anywhere, so combining shell and bullet ammo can't really make this issue worse.

... The explosives ammo type already does this to an extreme degree ...

Each rocket amounts to ~35 damage per unit, consistent across the three existing weapons.

Well that isn't really very obvious or intuitive at all. And it is subject to alot of change with future rebalances. So unless there is going to be an overhaul, the ammo system is what it is, no point in worrying about it IMO.

[Flying Steel]

The unfortunate part is that.. I found out a good portion of the competitive community are lazy.. They don't want to do any work, at all.... This can clearly be seen with my "Design Your Own Nexuiz" thread, where I asked the community to make their own balance.

I created a balance mod, for your mod system. I just wasn't sure if it was still wanted, with the 2.6 weapon balance overhaul and everything. But I'd be happy to submit the latest version.

(By the way, almost everyone I have shown this new balance to hates it.. And claims they will leave the game if it is added -- I myself will probably help fork, or leave.. if it comes to it.)

As an alternative to the fork or leave options, maybe it is time to make more aggressive use of the Mutator Arena system, so we can use whichever weapon balance we want upon the 2.6 release. Maybe do the same with physics sets. The popular Instagib and Minstagib use the Mutator menu.

Now, personally I see there to be no reason to add the fireball gun. Sure we removed the tag, but that doesn't mean we need to add anything. To be honest, the fireball is a sad attempt at a gun. It does take no skill, and the balance of it (Although I realize it's still subject to change) is less than fun. Everyone I have talked to doesn't like the implementation of it, although they do like the idea. I think adding this gun would put a wedge into the community even more, and i'm sure it's eventually going to split.

If worse comes to worst, the weapon could be radically rebalanced while still retaining its core feature- damage radius without detonation (and setting folks on fire). Then all you need is range-based-homing in another weapon and a melee (perhaps with shield capability) weapon and you have every possible weapon feature in Nexuiz.

[divVerent]

While it's often true that people tend to resist change as a rule (human nature), I don't think that is the case here, not when so many people are giving common complaints. I mean I have not heard from one person (outside of this thread) that does NOT think that the HLAC is overpowered. I think that is a pretty universal opinion, or at least a very popular one. Same as when the crylink was overpowered in many 2.4.2SVN revisions. When we brought up the complaint back then, we got the same response ... "oh, only a few people are really complaining".

HLAC is 1. not overpowered (or it would be #1 in the weapon stats), and 2. will get changed a lot in 2.6 anyway (although I think it's secondary is overpowered in the 2.6 balance).

Anyway, there is a clear trend: there's two groups of players: "pro-gamers" and regular players (you call them "noobs").

pro-gamers hate ANY sort of change, and complain violently if their fps goes down from 300fps to 280fps because a tiny graphics change was made somewhere. They would prefer the game to show solid colored surfaces everywhere, dark for the map, and bright for the enemies. pro-gamers generally hate changes that require them to learn something, and would generally prefer Nexuiz to become a clone of the game they come from (mostly Q3A). They never help other people in a game, as all they care for is winning.

regular players don't care much for most changes, but generally like changes (and also features like the hook or jetpack, as using them gives them an edge over the pro-gamer crowd who refuse to learn using these features because they believe they are "lame"). as they make the game more interesting to them.

And indeed, most changes in the last time were made in favor of the regular players, and against the pro-gamers, in order to let "new" players have more fun in the game.

If you think every single thing done for Nexuiz is wrong, why don't you go and fork it? Clearly the problem is that there is two groups of players of the same game who want entirely different things. We can't fulfill the wishes of both groups in a single game.

Very recently, antilag was "fixed" and that caused the shotgun to be very powerful. That is the most recent complaint within the past week or so.

The shotgun in base Nexuiz is clearly NOT overpowered, but most likely will be in 2.6 (per LordHavoc's change).

A game like Nexuiz really needs to evolve over time, absolutely. Change can be a really good thing, but only if it is well thought out. All of the weapon changes over the past year seem to be a bit random and just not very focused on improving the fundamentals of Nexuiz gameplay, or in focusing the style on something more futuristic.

All the weapon changes over the past year were based on weapon balance statistics. If you claim the changes were random, you'd also claim the statistics were random, which they were not (in fact, after each iteration it took longer to see a trend in the statistics, as the weapons were much closer together).

And if you get feedback from your server - why don't you share it? Doing so should be an elementary responsibility for anyone hosting a server of a development release. The Ninjaz and you failing at doing so is the major reason why much feedback is often not even seen by any of the developers. For example, it is entirely new to me that the ghost weapon items are irritating to some people - as the people in the development IRC channel generally like them, and also the players of the Spidflisk mod liked them.

[divVerent]

I'm not trying to be rude. I really don't think div attempts to be nice. He just tries to be the best developer he can be. The communication aspect is not really his area of focus. Programming is his focus. He would probably be happier if he only had 1-2 other developers to chat with.

Unfortunately, that isn't healthy for the project if he is the main person to speak with about changes in nexuiz.

Guess what? I never WANTED to be the main person for that. I was FORCED into that position by nobody else willing to do anything.

But thank you. Good to know you're one of the backstabbers too. All I do is obviously wrong, as you say. It is easy to complain about the work of others. It is easy to demand stuff to get removed. Anyone can do THAT. But try actually DOING something for the project, instead of whining over every change that might allow someone else to beat you in a game because you are too lazy to learn using it to your advantage.

[divVerent]

there is so much anger on this forum

maybe some people need to re think their mind set about all this. maybe we will get a lot more done that way

and that's all I'm going to say.

EXACTLY.

Instead of always complaining about every thing that changes, why can't they be CONSTRUCTIVE?

But no, that would be WORK.

Anyway, as for added weapons - it's up to the decision of the mappers whether they will be used or not. Mappers are free to place them if they like them. If a mapper does not like them, he shall not place them. A weapon does not hurt the game just because it's available in the code, and each weapon has its place. However, this place is not always "on every single map at least 2 times", like the Nex seems to be usually placed.