New weapons (and some old one) don't fit Nexuiz

[Flying Steel]

Just so you guys now. The Lasers purpose IS to make it easier to move and faster. It's meant to do little damage and push you forward. It isn't meant as a weapon or anything like that.

Yes exactly, "IS". That's present tense, but we are talking about the future balance of the game. In the future, maybe people shouldn't be able to get so many laser boosts in a row without dying, that is what we are saying.

Plus, just so you know, the laser IS a weapon, otherwise its primary fire mode would shoot down instead of forward. It is a gun, you are supposed to shoot people with it to hurt them. The jumping is just a very useful secondary feature, that maybe is too useful with the current settings.

This is one of the most basic principles to Nexuiz, heck, this is what MAKES it Nexuiz.

So then as long as the laser is unchanged, you don't care so much if the top running speed is 1 meter per second, there's no bunny hopping and the only weapons available are the laser and shotgun, that'd still be Nexuiz? There's nothing more to this game than laser jumping?

Laser should never ever be changed to something that hurts you very much or pushes too little.

Its damage should be increased by about 50%, that won't hurt you 'very much', it'll just hurt you more.

[Mirio]

Hell don't touch the laser / bunny hopping / whatever ! its enough if you "play" with the weapon balance.

a "pro" mod would not be that bad btw! at least we should try like SavegeX said in his post. (read it)

[divVerent]

And if you get feedback from your server - why don't you share it?

Pfft.. I thought I already explained that. Who are we going to share this information with? You? Nobody enjoys talking with you. You are not pleasant to converse with, and you have a tendency to disregard things anyway.

If I were as bad as you'd think, you'd be banned from the forum by now. But I prefer free speech, even if it means that people like you who can't do anything but insult other people are allowed it too.

So all you can do is going ad hominem.

Plus, you never even TRIED to share the information. All you do is complaining here. You can always send the info to the project maintainer, Ixion/m0rfar, if you hate talking to me directly.

Also, as for the stats: they are based on HUMAN behaviour. They are recorded from actual games with actual people. If you had even played on that stats recording server, you'd know that you are getting FORCED to use the HLAC on the server no matter if you want to or not - to exclude the very behaviour you talked about, namely not using a gun because it's "lame".

Also, if you had known me before the Ninjaz appeared, you would have seen me as a much less annoying person. This is because I am getting so pissed off about all the negativity in here (to which you contribute), against which nothing good can be done (the way z would like, namely censorship, is the one thing I absolutely refuse).

[ai]

@Flying Steel: You and your overly sensitive perspective and comprehension of time. Well then, I'm gonna break this down as simple as I can, and as I'm a very simple dude I think I am able to.

Mmm... donuts.

Anyway.
The Lasers purpose has _always_ been intended to function the way it is now, past, present _and_ future. It has _never_ been intended as weapon. Yes you can use it as a very low damaging weapon but that's just something that comes with the very low health you lose when you use that.
The laser has always been a TOOL, not a weapon (quotes from the devs). And laser has stayed this way, IS this way and SHALL stay this way.
Past, present and future and in all the discovered and undiscovered dimensions, for all time. Eternity if you wish, you know, the never ending. Like, crop circles and bodily functions.

[Grasshopper]

i wanna try and approach this looking at all angles (constructive )

Rifle:secondary may be an appeal for a new player but for both new and advanced i see that it doesnt get used much because you cant tell how far to lead a shot . there are no trails to guage from . also im confused as to what its purpose is in nexuiz , the little nex that could . im just not understanding its advantage . reload gets me killed or i just suck


Hlac: the new player uses it because it is damaging and needs no real aiming skill . pro-gamers feel like it is over powered and generaly not a fun wep to use . also it seems like an MG clone

fire ball : crowd control . i like the idea but i find it slow yet powerful. i would suggest it be very limited somehow . . new players like it for obvious reasons .

ghost items: doesnt matter to me . i think it will help new players learn maps more . all to many times i have seen ppl pass up a spot with a certain item , and then ask " where is ...?"
thumbs up on that idea .

new weps in general : i find that i dont care for most of the new weapons mainly due to its new player catering . i like using old weps because they are effective at mid to long range .
yes they will dominate a new player if used in conjunction with combos , but the fun part is going against someone better than me .
New players are having fun with the new weps until they are up against an advanced player . then the new weps are useless somewhat .
with that said here is my nexuiz background and maybe insight into the mind of the new player learning the ropes .
I started out on hook because i could not move like veterans . over time i became good with weapons and combos . using hook taught me how to lead shots with the nex and rl . i still wasnt that great with weps . so i wanted to learn how to dominate my enemies with wep combos and such .
I began to visit the traditional servers where ppl are just walking all over me whereas if they were on hook i might have a chance . this is where nexuiz got fun for me . I see these guys zipping around without hook at speeds comparable to hook . How do you do that ? ow is you aim so good ? how are you turning like that ?
So over a little time and a few generous players who helped me in the servers i have become one of the top players .
I visited hook and its no fun fun for me anymore . im strictly a traditional moving player now . I dominate the opposition in hook now.

Now with that in mind i would like to point out that at one time what WAS fun no longer isnt .
I think that jet pack , hook , and some new weps , may help get new players and keep them . but , if they do not graduate to a more skilled level then , advanced players wont have any clan matches to play anymore because its the same ppl over and over . I hope new players want to learn thier potential , but for now i see the new additions to nexuiz will make them take longer .

new weps and items are good for attracting and keeping ppl . But the veterans need a way to keep exhisting players interested in becomming better . this way we all have a circulation of fresh gibs to eat .

i hope this was constructive and creates some brainstorming

[PinkRobot]

I have stayed out of this thread so far but I can no longer resist. I wish we could stop the mud slinging though, that's really below the level of all of us.

So anyway, a major factor for the upcoming and already applied changes have to do with the fact that Nexuiz is downloaded by so many people yet only a handful sticks around. I would like to know how these numbers relate to other free games out there. How do Open Arena, Warsow, etc compare to these figures? Do we know this, should we try to find out? Is it pretty much the same ratio there? Then this is not a Nexuiz specific problem (and maybe has more to do with what I mentioned before, it's free so let's download it) and it would be crazy to change the game for this reason alone.

If it is Nexuiz specific, is changing the game to be completely noob-friendly really the best way to improve this? And should you even want this? Is it more important to be a unique game that apparently only appeals to a limited number of people (it has survived so far) or more important to have a more mainstreamish game that more people might play?

One of the complaints you read by close minded people (who have maybe played Nexuiz once 4 years ago) is that it's 'just another Quake clone'. The thing is, will you make them right about this? And do you seriously think it will convince those people to start playing it? Should you go for numbers, or for character?

Have these decisions been made, what were the arguments?

So far for the 'noobs'. Now about the 'pro's':

Nexuiz keeps developing and reinventing itself. It's not a game that is released commercially and then, barring bug fixes, stays pretty much the same throughout its life cycle. This means that any 'pro' who wants to play, become good and stay good will have a rough time. Because every time you have sorted out a way for the movement physics or the weapon balance to work in your favour, a new version will come along that will change some or all of the characteristics, making much of what you knew and could do before, next to useless.

What does the dev team find more important? Constant reinvention, adding features and removing them as they go along for as long as there is Nexuiz? Or should the game at some point be 'stable' and not change a lot anymore?

[divVerent]

@grasshopper:

As for the rifle: there is an experimental change to disable reload, and instead give the secondary a cooldown. This reduces the required skill to use the rifle without making the rifle much stronger (as the reload is no issue if you control it properly). The reload feature will stay in the code, and many will keep it enabled on the server. You may even expect medieval-style maps to re-enable the reload feature via mapinfo.

As for HLAC: solved in the 2.6 balance. It is more exact, and fires slower. You may however ask what its purpose is then. To me, in the 2.6 balance the main purpose of the HLAC is the secondary, which somewhat works better to hit a player fully with than the Crylink. I am not happy with its primary though, it simply lost its usefulness, and became just another Hagar/MG.

As for fireball: I still am not sure about the right detonation radius for it. It may have to be lowered still. Damage values seem fine now, though. I just made a change of the damage focus - now it's more important to do a direct hit, and less to rely on the long-range effect of the fireball.

[Flying Steel]

@Flying Steel: You and your overly sensitive perspective and comprehension of time. Well then, I'm gonna break this down as simple as I can, and as I'm a very simple dude I think I am able to.

You and your gross absolutism and stubborness to even think about any kind of change, no matter how small.

Mmm... donuts.

Yes, donuts are good.

Anyway.
The Lasers purpose has _always_ been intended to function the way it is now, past, present _and_ future. It has _never_ been intended as weapon. Yes you can use it as a very low damaging weapon but that's just something that comes with the very low health you lose when you use that.

Intents can change. The 2.5.1 Havoc laser was an obvious attempt at increasing its effectiveness as a backup weapon. The execution just was off, the laser does not work well as a repeater, methinks.

And it is a backup weapon too, because it requires no ammo- no other weapon has this feature. The shotgun is also extremely range limited, even when you have shells left.

The laser has always been a TOOL, not a weapon (quotes from the devs). And laser has stayed this way, IS this way and SHALL stay this way.

Using all caps doesn't make your prophecy any more sound.

Past, present and future and in all the discovered and undiscovered dimensions, for all time. Eternity if you wish, you know, the never ending. Like, crop circles and bodily functions.

This, on the other hand, makes for an ironclad prophecy.

[Flying Steel]

As for HLAC: solved in the 2.6 balance. It is more exact, and fires slower. You may however ask what its purpose is then. To me, in the 2.6 balance the main purpose of the HLAC is the secondary, which somewhat works better to hit a player fully with than the Crylink. I am not happy with its primary though, it simply lost its usefulness, and became just another Hagar/MG.

I agree, the HLAC lost both its refire and its spread growth (practically). Couldn't its per-shot damage have been reduced instead? Because before it was better at long and close ranged fighting than the hagar, but worse at medium, which was an interesting balance I thought.

I also agree on the secondary though, it seems like it is now solidly useful, like it was in 2.5 beta (IIRC). But it is so much more useful than the primary, that it makes it so you should only use the secondary unless in a very long ranged fight.

[divVerent]

The HLAC's high spread was extremely annoying, which leaves only the fire rate to discuss. And yes, there I also liked the faster one.