New weapons (and some old one) don't fit Nexuiz

[PinkRobot]

Just to make absolutely clear the intention of this post: an argument heard frequently over the last few weeks as to why Nexuiz has to change and become more noob-friendly is that the total times it has been downloaded is huge and yet the player count is pretty low.

Mirio thanks for your response. I will leave Warsow aside for a moment and I did some research for myself taking Open Arena and Tremulous to compare Nexuiz with.

First of all: I need better player statistics. unique players during one whole day would be good. I will need to check for a way to find this data for all games. That will come later, but here is a first indication.

So anyway.

Player counts:

At about 9 PM here I compared the number of players playing on public Nexuiz servers with the number playing on public Open Arena servers and public Tremulous servers (using dpmaster.deathmask.net).

There were around 100 players playing Nexuiz;

There were around 110 players playing Open Arena;

There were around 320 players playing Tremulous.

Game downloads:

Nexuiz 2.5.1 is mainly downloaded from SourceForge and the download counter there is at about 146,000 downloads.

Open Arena has several mirrors, 6 are listed on their website. Only 4 of those supply viewable download statistics. I added those 4 up and came to 133,000 downloads for Open Arena 0.8.1. I will disregard the 2 mirrors because I don't have statistics (considering the second one in their list has even a direct download, it would not surprise me if the actual number of downloads would far exceed the 150,000 mark).

Thankfully Tremulous is also hosted at SourceForge. Adding up the numbers for the Windows, Linux and combined downloads for Tremulous 1.1.0, we reach a pretty staggering 1,418,000.

Again, I do realize that only looking during one night in one timezone is not the most failsafe approach, but for the moment it will have to do. Let's calculate the ratio on the current numbers (leaving the 2 remaining OA mirrors aside for the moment).

Nexuiz has a score of 1460 downloads per public player at time of counting.
Open Arena has a score of 1209 downloads per public player at time of counting.
Tremulous has a score of 4431 downloads per public player at time of counting.

Pretty rudimentary results so far, it's late and I need to go to bed. I will return to this later to hopefully include more free games and more reliable player number statistics. Having said that, my current conclusion is that IF Nexuiz indeed has a problem, then most likely Open Arena has it too. And Tremulous should probably just be dumped in the North Sea altogether

[nifrek]

The discussion is going nowhere (about "pro" vs "newbie"), I think the way to go would be with SavageX's suggestions, if all other devs agree with it.

Personnaly I already like the 2.6 balance even if work on them only just started, I played a few times with them and other than a few inconsistencies and we played a quick ctf match yesterday and nobody complained afaik, it's quite good already and still being worked on. So I am interested in seeing where this is going, but having a "classic" or "pro" mode should be worked on too because the 2.6 balance is completely different than what we currently have and it's obvious a lot of current players won't want to adapt. But for this to work, this "pro" mode or whatever it would be called (I think "Classic" would be better), would need to be official, not some cfg that people download externally and install on their server. Meaning, like SavageX suggested, it needs to come with Nexuiz and be visible to players browsing servers in some way.

I also think nexuiz needs server cfg templates to run specific game mode by simple exec'ing a cfg. Ie: regular duel, ctf, tdm, minsta, etc. with or without tourney mode. That way, we could then have a way to filter servers that use custom settings or not, as was discussed some time ago in a different thread. Right now it would be confusing to run a 3v3ctf server with tourney mode publicly because of maxplayers showing 18 when only 6 players can play at a time. I know it's possible to add that info to server name but that still is confusing when changing gamemodes by vote, master server won't update right away with that info. Competitive servers and regular public servers need to stop being a seperate thing, I mean private servers will always exist but it should be normal to have tourney servers public too where players can play more serious games without finding out about some obscure irc channel to join or being invited after 3 months of playing. That would take care of players coming from other fps, they wouldn't just see 2 or 3 public servers they see in server list at all time and nothing else.

Contrary to poplar belief, newbies are more than welcome to join in pickups with more advanced players, but as of yet there is no way for this to happen easily and that creates a split in communities.

[satishbhawra32]

Regarding Nexuiz Style... I've been told that Nexuiz started out as an industrial style game (similar to quake) but then the focus of style has changed to a futuristic space style game. With this style in mind...

[pain_fedora6]

I m also going to give my honest opinion:

If divo is indeed (i think he is) the main (almost sole) coder/developer of the game, and he is not earning money out of it, but rather doing it cause its his hobby or such, i wouldnt care less if he coded shitting rabbits or puking vultures flying around causing damage if that was fun FOR HIM. after all , its his damn work, he has his own fun (hope he still has) out of it. What is sincerely fun for him (like the tuba looked like) is going to be fun for most of other people as well. That's my sincere point of view. If i were Div0 and was NOT earning my daily payroll on this project, i would do whatever i liked. Not giving the slightest piece of attention to what other;s regarded "correct" or not.
I know this sounds a bit absolute, but one thing is doing something for you own entertainment, and another being bullied by "community" voices into other things.

[TVR]

.. 200 armor and 100 health as the max ...

100 armour is a commodity, it is improbable to find two in a row on any map, as every stock DM map, with the exception of Diesel Power & Bleach, only have one at most.

.. I'd suggest making the 2.6 laser primary do 100 damage that falls off quickly ... rely on it as much as a backup weapon ...

100 damage is sufficient to displace the shotgun completely, with all the previously mentioned qualities.

Laser is designed as escape tool, it can be used for laser-jumps and to disorient pursuers, which allows one to find ammo for a more useful weapon.

[ai]

Um, as my memory sucks I already forgot what you wrote Flying (and don't want to reread it). But I've said it before and will say it one last time. You have gotten a picture of me that I actually dislike you because I disagree with your ideas. Because I mostly dislike those ideas you think I'm attacking you personally which isn't true. I have never insulted you, if you think I did that then you're too sensitive (above average).

If you come with an idea that actually respects as to what Nexuiz has always been instead of ignoring everything altogether then I might agree with that idea.
However, ultimately, you have already formed an image of me so no matter what I say you won't believe me. I couldn't care less (nor do I wish to argue against that), but if in future you propose something and I disagree with it (I don't automatically disagree with your ideas just because they are yours, as you seem to believe), don't believe I'm doing that to attack you.

But you need to understand and to respect the older Nexuiz and all their players who enjoy that, instead of ignoring everything Nexuiz has been up till now just because you disagree with it. If you can't do that, then that's very immature.

--
Now explaining more what the laser actually is. As I've mentioned (and TVR), it is a tool. It isn't meant, nor is meant to be a secondary weapon. If it can be used as a secondary weapon then that's just a feature. If ammo for shotgun disappears too quickly add more starting ammo, if it's too much remove some starting ammo.
The shotgun is meant as a weapon, not the laser. The reason why you have just one (rather weak) starting weapon is so that you need an incentive to pick up a better one. If ammo is used up too quickly then you need just need to get some better weapons. Now, the laser exists to help you do that, not really help you kill people (even though it can).
Use the laser on your opponents to disorient them and push them away. This is the sole purpose of the laser, again as a tool, not a weapon.

[Flying Steel]

.. 200 armor and 100 health as the max ...

100 armour is a commodity, it is improbable to find two in a row on any map, as every stock DM map, with the exception of Diesel Power & Bleach, only have one at most.

Well just try playing on the test server, you might find like I did that getting up to and staying around 200 is really easy when there is no rot. There's just alot of armor around on the standard levels, if you don't count only the 100 packs.

.. I'd suggest making the 2.6 laser primary do 100 damage that falls off quickly ... rely on it as much as a backup weapon ...

100 damage is sufficient to displace the shotgun completely, with all the previously mentioned qualities.

Think of it as a melee attack, because that's what is ment to be for the most part (the 100 damage I mean). It should do half that much damage after about 4 to 10 meters. Granted, that could still replace the current shotgun, but that's because the shotgun does too little damage and uses way too little ammo. And changing the former already appears to be a goal of 2.6.

And this wouldn't affect the secondary fire, which is for jumping.

Laser is designed as escape tool, it can be used for laser-jumps and to disorient pursuers, which allows one to find ammo for a more useful weapon.

IMO, it would still function very well as such a device.



AI: I have used the laser in all the ways you mentioned, in addition to this one (directly lethal weapon) a great many times. But for the reasons listed above I think it's usage in this way has been undermined unintentionally, so it needs a boost to maintain its current balance at least, going into 2.6.

The off topic stuff I'll respond to via PM, so as not to derail this topic anymore.

[Silica Gel: Do Not Eat]

yeah, it's a lengthy post, but read it anyway...


Regarding Nexuiz Style... I've been told that Nexuiz started out as an industrial style game (similar to quake) but then the focus of style has changed to a futuristic space style game. With this style in mind...

Imho the weapons fit into the Nexuiz style just fine. Nexuiz combines both human and alien technology. Many Sci-FI shows / movies combine both traditional and futuristic weapons. (Firefly, Stargate, District 9).

Oh , And I want to thank you for your Nexuiz servers. HODM and HOCTF

Well... from my point of view as co-leader: I share the view that apparently currently something is broken with the game and I *welcome* shifting towards a "friendly to new players" tuning.

While I can absolutely see this may upset some players (and I'm sorry for that) I'd hope we could simply try things out without being crucified beforehand (nah, that's too strong a wording, but you get the idea).

What I don't get is that apparently nobody realizes that weapon balance is something easily changed by some cvars and that the "pro community" could simply provide something fitting their needs that fits like a glove - that'd be a really simple mod. That'd be constructive and I'd even vote for including it with Nexuiz and e.g. give it a different color in the server browser (if possible).

So if the "pro community" can actually decide on something they like that could be something constructive. If most servers would happen to use that mod... well, that'd be some sort of community vote, too.

We can have the pony AND the cake.

I like this idea.

As far as keeping new players

I think many of the new players are turned off by some of the inconsiderate jerks playing the game. I am sick of seeing severely unbalanced games where one team is mostly newer player and the other is all experienced players and players manually joining the better team, Teams running up the score and sniping the hell out of the other team.

Can you image how you a new player feels playing mentalspace and is getting sniped as soon as he spawns 20 times in a row.

There are a lot of awesomly good and friendly players in Nexuiz. However I'm noticing a lot more arrogant jerks too!

They talk down to less skilled players, call there teammates idiots or losers if things don't go there way, They manually join the best team. They snipe the heck out of newbies. They pound their chest and tell everyone how fricken l33t they are. WTF

Lately I've even noticed ppl playing just to team kill or spam
Where are all these bad apples coming from?

[PCLizard]

I find that the best way to play Nexuiz is to make maps for Nexuiz.

When I do play online I do a terrible job of supporting my team, I fail to make it past the lowest 2 players on the scoreboard, and then I pound my chest (very hardly) about how I "PWNDDDD" everyone else and they SUCK!!!! (even though I'm the worst player).

I also lazer teammates into the void, lol.
Sometimes it takes awhile for people to realize I'm TKing. LOL
Oh, and I often try to distrupt my team's flag carrier, that's alot of fun because it's hard.
If I get my flag carrier into the void: anti-point for me!

Goddamn you're a pro if I've ever seen one!

[nifrek]

I think many of the new players are turned off by some of the inconsiderate jerks playing the game. I am sick of seeing severely unbalanced games where one team is mostly newer player and the other is all experienced players and players manually joining the better team, Teams running up the score and sniping the hell out of the other team.

They talk down to less skilled players, call there teammates idiots or losers if things don't go there way, They manually join the best team. They snipe the heck out of newbies. They pound their chest and tell everyone how fricken l33t they are. WTF

Lately I've even noticed ppl playing just to team kill or spam
Where are all these bad apples coming from?

Hmm. Seriously I want names or I won't believe this. What "experienced" players join the winning team ON PURPOSE? What experienced players are talking down on less skilled players? This is horrible and if true, those players need to be dealt with. And what servers did this happen? If you can, can you post demos? Don't be scared to say names, I think this is serious.

Also, I'm not sure what you think is an experienced player, you will have to explain. The guys with a lot of points aren't always the most skilled/experienced players on the server.

The part about sniping, that is the maps fault, nothing can be done about it other than not voting for those maps which are in fact, believe it or not, usually more voted for by the less experienced players than the more experienced players.

And you have to understand that there's almost no way, currently, to have fair teams on public servers. When it happens, it is often more by luck than anything else. Some servers try to fix that by not allowing you to pick a team and is balanced by number of players, but what happens then is that an experienced player ends up being forced to join winning team because due to number of players, he's not allowed to join losing one OR switch to it for the same reason during a match. This happens to me a lot, sometimes I'll stay spectator but I'm also here to have fun so yes, sometimes I don't have the CHOICE but to join winning team, I'll switch when it's actually possible switch, but that's not always the case.

Some servers allow you to pick the team you want, but that also doesn't always work either because one team might end up with 10 players and the other team 6 players because some players are trying to balance teams. Then you have many players switching teams trying to balance the teams. You end up not really playing a match at all, you're just checking scoreboard to see if teams are balanced. How do you organize/plan that? How do you balance teams when you don't have any sort of control?