New weapons (and some old one) don't fit Nexuiz

[Dokujisan]

yeah, it's a lengthy post, but read it anyway...

The new weapons don't fit Nexuiz. This is the overwhelming consensus among the people that I have heard talking about the new weapons. It wasn't really much of an issue when the new weapons first appeared after 2.5, because existing maps didn't have the new weapons and most servers didn't use them, so players didn't really notice them. But it's now an issue that gets brought up a lot more as mappers are starting to place the newer weapons on new maps. Server admins have to go through a number of steps to try to balance out the new maps to have them use the traditional weapons.

Regarding Nexuiz Style... I've been told that Nexuiz started out as an industrial style game (similar to quake) but then the focus of style has changed to a futuristic space style game. With this style in mind...

Among the traditional weapons (from before 2.5), the laser, electro, crylink and nex seem to fit in with the Nexuiz style. However, the shotgun, machine gun, grenade launcher and rocket launcher are old military style weapons. If the Alientrap wanted to adjust the weapons between Nexuiz versions, they could perhaps change the existing weapons so they fit more of the style of nexuiz. The weapons could have the same gameplay features, but (for example) the rocket would be a more futuristic projectile weapon, instead of a using a rocket designed in the 1950s.

Of the new weapons, the HLAC is the only one that seems to fit Nexuiz. However, it is too powerful right now. The HLAC really should just have the power reduced and then just replace the machinegun (since it is basically a laser-based machinegun anyway).

The rifle and the fireball are just bad ideas for Nexuiz. Maybe they fit in another game, but they don't fit in Nexuiz. Any weapon that takes zero skill to use is bad (like the fireball). The rifle is not only an old style weapon, but it is very difficult to use effectively. My understanding is that it is not a hitscan weapon, but a very fast projectile weapon.

Many feel that the nex gun is the most dominant weapon in the game. The only things that balance the dominance of the nex are 1) map design (enclosed maps with smaller spaces) 2) limited availability of ammo 3) limited accessibility of the nex. I've never been happy that the nex is such a dominant weapon, but I also feel that the nex is absolutely necessary to help balance against the super fast speed of players in nexuiz (especially in CTF). Once someone gets moving fast enough, the nex becomes the only weapon that is really effective in stopping them. Sometimes, even the nex can't stop a super fast player.

There are a lot of options for the direction Nexuiz can take with adding new weapons, or adjusting existing ones.

1) I think there should be at least another nex-like weapon (I guess that is what the rifle was intended to be)
2) I think a melee weapon could work well, if it is thought out properly and tested.
3) I have always liked the hand grenade as a weapon (from quake).

There are a lot of other ideas to consider, but these things really should involve a LOT of OPEN discussion and TESTING of gameplay. That didn't happen with the new weapons after 2.5. So far, it is pretty clear that the new weapons have all failed with gameplay (on any matches that I've seen involving new weapons).

Sorry for being long-winded.



.... some related comments....


Mappers are also putting the grappling hook on maps too, which is just horrible. I say let the server admins decide if the map is to be played with a grapple hook or not, as that (putting a grapple ON the map as a spawn item) dramatically changes the game. On non-hook servers, anyone who grabs the grapple hook will have a tremendous movement advantage that throws off the whole match. Movement tools, like the hook, should be for hook servers where everyone has a hook.

Also (this is somewhat related to the above comment about hooks) please, mappers, don't remove the laser using mapinfo (re: campgrounds/francinator). That actually changes the game mode quite a bit. When you are messing around with basic things like the weapons that are available when a player spawns, that is changing the game mode. There is nothing wrong with playing with the game mode, but let the server admins do that. If you want to create a new game mode that doesn't use a laser, talk to the alientrap devs about making a new one and then design your map for that.

[ai]

I think the weapons fit perfectly with Nexuiz. Granted, I like the old Electro more, but all the other weapons are cool. I also liked that other rocket launcher better than this current one. I think Morphed made that one as well.

[Flying Steel]

The new weapons don't fit Nexuiz. This is the overwhelming consensus among the people that I have heard talking about the new weapons.

If those people aren't refering to the havoc / soon to be 2.6 default weapons, then that is because they are unaware of them. Simply put, there's alot more weapon balance changes in the works than a few weapon additions. Many of the weapons are being almost reinvented it seems.

Among the traditional weapons (from before 2.5), the laser, electro, crylink and nex seem to fit in with the Nexuiz style. However, the shotgun, machine gun, grenade launcher and rocket launcher are old military style weapons.

This is fairly common in FPS games though- Doom, Tribes, Halo, Unreal, etc., all had a mixture of weapon types we recognize from today plus ones not yet possible.

Maybe they fit in another game, but they don't fit in Nexuiz. Any weapon that takes zero skill to use is bad (like the fireball).

It is a very new weapon that won't be released in a stable build for a while longer to come. It also does take skill to use, how much in arguable. But the fireball has a sizeable fire delay, very slow refire and very slow travel speed. The incendiaries are slow and just bounce along the ground like electro balls or grenades almost.

The rifle is not only an old style weapon, but it is very difficult to use effectively. My understanding is that it is not a hitscan weapon, but a very fast projectile weapon.

That's correct, it isn't hitscan, hitscan weapons are being phased out, I forget why. It seems that the rifle is going to be the new sniper weapon. Look at the changes for the Nex on the roadmap. I think it is getting damage-range falloff, which might start to make it less of a sniper weapon. Unless the falloff is reversed, like with the alien sniper gun from Halo (Particle Rifle? can't remember the name).

Many feel that the nex gun is the most dominant weapon in the game. The only things that balance the dominance of the nex are 1) map design (enclosed maps with smaller spaces) 2) limited availability of ammo 3) limited accessibility of the nex. I've never been happy that the nex is such a dominant weapon, but I also feel that the nex is absolutely necessary to help balance against the super fast speed of players in nexuiz (especially in CTF). Once someone gets moving fast enough, the nex becomes the only weapon that is really effective in stopping them. Sometimes, even the nex can't stop a super fast player.

A very interesting point.

1) I think there should be at least another nex-like weapon (I guess that is what the rifle was intended to be)
2) I think a melee weapon could work well, if it is thought out properly and tested.
3) I have always liked the hand grenade as a weapon (from quake).

Agree on all, except 3 should be a function of the grenade launcher, methinks.

There are a lot of other ideas to consider, but these things really should involve a LOT of OPEN discussion and TESTING of gameplay. That didn't happen with the new weapons after 2.5.

The devs prefer to balance based on play testing statistics generated from test servers. I think if folks were less quick to get stubborn and emotional and be more logical and open to other ideas besides what they've grown accustomed to, the devs might rely less on kill statistics and off-forum discussions to work out balance changes.

[ai]

I think if folks were less quick to get stubborn and emotional and be more logical and open to other ideas besides what they've grown accustomed to

You forget that that's impossible. People, in any situation, always rely on emotions, familiarity and security. Too much emotion is bad sure, but too much 'open minded' is as equally bad.

[Mirio]

don't remove the laser using mapinfo (re: campgrounds/francinator)

Thats just a feature of the map for 1on1 and you can get the laser anyway

[Flying Steel]

I think if folks were less quick to get stubborn and emotional and be more logical and open to other ideas besides what they've grown accustomed to

You forget that that's impossible. People, in any situation, always rely on emotions, familiarity and security. Too much emotion is bad sure, but too much 'open minded' is as equally bad.

Given the context of what I said I think it should be pretty clear I meant emotional as in dominated or blinded by (select) emotions, not that the problem is people have emotions.

My point is, that I don't think the devs fully trust forum regulars' ability to make good decisions for the game's popularity and future, because they get too emotional. So they come up with ideas behind closed doors and rely on statistical balancing, which is basically the opposite approach to dealing with the game's future. So I think people who want to be heard more, should "try to speak the language" so to speak- think and talk more of like game developers. Be more tester and less testy.

Case and point is the 2.5 physics change. It just turned up friction and acceration in tandem for sharper control or such, but everyone freaked initially, because it was so different they had to spend a whole week getting used to it, so therefore it ruined Nexuiz and a revert was demanded. But the devs didn't cave and eventually folks got used to it and now seem to prefer it.

[Yoda almighty]

Dib and I are working on a melee weapon. at this point, it's mostly his area of expertise, getting it coded in.

also, I really like the idea of having the nex damage increase as distance increases.

[tZork]

Among the traditional weapons (from before 2.5), the laser, electro, crylink and nex seem to fit in with the Nexuiz style. However, the shotgun, machine gun, grenade launcher and rocket launcher are old military style weapons. If the Alientrap wanted to adjust the weapons between Nexuiz versions, they could perhaps change the existing weapons so they fit more of the style of nexuiz. The weapons could have the same gameplay features, but (for example) the rocket would be a more futuristic projectile weapon, instead of a using a rocket designed in the 1950s.

I don't see the nexuiz style RL as a 'old design' sure you can trace it roots, so to speak, to older tech, but then again that true for just abt anything. GL does perhaps feel a tad oldish, but that one is ok, imo. the machine gun and to some extent rifle i can agree they feel misplaced.

Of the new weapons, the HLAC is the only one that seems to fit Nexuiz. However, it is too powerful right now. The HLAC really should just have the power reduced and then just replace the machinegun (since it is basically a laser-based machinegun anyway).

Hm, well i designed the HLAC to be a power full weapon, not at all some low powered laser based smg. But the cogs of balancing have turned it into something rather boring. so maybe it could replace the mg now. However, this presents a problem for ppl with bad ping, since _only_ hitscan weapons, that is shotgun, machine gun, nexgun and rifle(?) have antilag capabilities. Id still prefer the HLAC getting a boot up to the thing it was intended as tough, "the choice" for close combat.

The rifle and the fireball are just bad ideas for Nexuiz. Maybe they fit in another game, but they don't fit in Nexuiz. Any weapon that takes zero skill to use is bad (like the fireball). The rifle is not only an old style weapon, but it is very difficult to use effectively. My understanding is that it is not a hitscan weapon, but a very fast projectile weapon.

I have somewhat mixed feeling when it comes to the rifle. Its fun because its so challenging, otoh its fairly redundant (we allready have nex/mg). Its only gimmic seem to be head shots (wich could just as well be implemented for any hitscan gun) and enoying reloads. I haven't played much public with the FB yet so i cant say much abt it. First feeling is that the fire delay and astronomical refire could balance its power well.

...
Mappers are also putting the grappling hook on maps too, which is just horrible. I say let the server admins decide if the map is to be played with a grapple hook or not, as that (putting a grapple ON the map as a spawn item) dramatically changes the game. On non-hook servers, anyone who grabs the grapple hook will have a tremendous movement advantage that throws off the whole match. Movement tools, like the hook, should be for hook servers where everyone has a hook.

No, no and hmm oh yes.. NO! Placing the hook on a map is totally OK, then the map (should be) designed for it. And thats is the no1 problem with the old offhand hook; raping maps gameplay by bypassing everything the mapper thought game play wize by just hooking around like tarzan on crack. If you really hate it, use weapon replace to turn it into something else.

Also (this is somewhat related to the above comment about hooks) please, mappers, don't remove the laser using mapinfo (re: campgrounds/francinator). That actually changes the game mode quite a bit. When you are messing around with basic things like the weapons that are available when a player spawns, that is changing the game mode. There is nothing wrong with playing with the game mode, but let the server admins do that. If you want to create a new game mode that doesn't use a laser, talk to the alientrap devs about making a new one and then design your map for that.

I split on this, i certinly see your point Dokujisan, but as a mapper, i also see the need for removing the laser for certain type of maps / gameplay.

[Agama]

That's correct, it isn't hitscan, hitscan weapons are being phased out, I forget why. It seems that the rifle is going to be the new sniper weapon. Look at the changes for the Nex on the roadmap. I think it is getting damage-range falloff, which might start to make it less of a sniper weapon. Unless the falloff is reversed, like with the alien sniper gun from Halo (Particle Rifle? can't remember the name).

For the theme of nexuiz, I don't really imagine bullets in a futuristic alien game. And last time I checked what it said was on the front page "Simple, fast, intense.....". There shouldn't really be a "sniper weapon" its a hitscan weapon. Nexuiz isn't a game where you sit in a corner and try and get almost impossible headshots on people with the rifle while they are moving insanely fast around you. The Nex right now is completely fine as it is and fits nexuiz's style almost the best.

[PCLizard]

Fuck off doujuk and go make your own game if you hate the weapons the developers made.
It's also nice for mappers to have a large variety of weapons to place, so go the fuck to hell with your weapon removal ideas.

Lol. Just. Lol.

It's what the community wants in the end....if the community rejects a weapon added to the game, should that weapon stay? I think not...and vice versa for that matter.