new players to nexuiz

[Flying Steel]

If I understood you right, you were suggesting to remove bunny hopping and laser/weapon jumping in order to make the gameplay more intuitive for newbies?

For default, yes. And then replacing them with movement ways that fill similar roles but are much more recognizable, intuitive and transparent. And that look like they are meant to be part of the game, not something newbes would understandably confuse for hacking or exploiting.

Bunny hopping is just fun - the way to gain speed by carefully selecting your hopping path makes moving very fluent and elegant if you are moving fast. I just like that from an aesthetic/fun perspective. It's like doing long drifts with a car without touching anything. Or like flying through a twisted canyon close above the ground.

Having learned to do it well myself, I totally agree. It does having a vehicular quality to it too.

But I don't see most players doing it and very few doing it well, not even in the open maps. I do see a lot of hook and jet usage on the servers that have allowed those though. So it isn't a matter of the game being faster or slower or easier or harder, because hook and jet are not any easier to use than bunny hopping and very much faster. The problem is that bunny hopping is just to weird of a thing for new players to really get into.

Laser/weapon jumping is a great way to gain speed quickly and to get out of close combat instantly. Sacrificing a reasonable amount of health for that makes you have to think about when/if to do weapon jumps. In my opinion this greatly enhances the depth of gameplay. Also, if you can't do weapon jumps it would be only logical to drastically remove the push effect from the weapons and juggling with opponents

It isn't about how much push the weapons have, it is the ratio of push to self damage being too high. So juggling is fine.

The distances you can cross and speed you can attain through weapon jumping is just too high for such a weird mode of travel. And a mode of travel with such a weird interface- having to look and aim in the opposite direction from where you want to go, to perform the best weapon jumps. Not newbe friendly.


We need to add, or in the case of the hook and jet, better integrate and balance more intuitive modes of travel into default to make the game more transparent and graspable to new players. And then use these to replace the less intuitive, legacy movement modes I listed earlier, in default. Servers can still run whatever physics set they want, from classic physics with hopping and extreme weapon push/self-damage ratios to full out old school movement mods like Nexrun.

[PCLizard]

2) The current crop of 'elite' players do little to help newbies. Once upon a time, experienced players would go out of their way to teach a noob how to bunnyjump, how to laserjump, etc. Now they just waltz into a server, kill all the noobs, and leave. Usually without a SINGLE word spoken. Or worse, brag about it.

How many people actually say 'hi' anymore when a noob says 'hello'? How many people take time to stop and type a longwinded explanation of how something works when a noob asks them, even when they know it would mean their death? You don't. You'd sooner have someone tell you to 'press f10' than actually tell you. How many people play the game for the fun, not for the scores? You don't either. You'd have elite players quitting as soon as they start losing, players typefragging simply because someone did that to them once, skilled players joining stacked winning teams when they should've known better, players ignoring chat or worse, actually telling people that 'this game is for fragging, not chatting".

They learn soon enough that arrogance is the way in nexuiz. So they stop asking. They become silent players too, no matter how bad they are.

When I first started to play nexuiz. I was like them. I didn't have any idea how to laserjump. I played like that for a week or so, then asked someone. I still remember his username, though he does not play anymore - Bender. We were the only people in the server, and he gladly taught me everything from laserjumping to wallclimbing.

I don't see that anymore. We don't have communities anymore. Even the clans are dying. Everything is exclusive. From the hidden servers to the 1on1 events that noobs have no idea about. Where before we had 'teaching' servers. There was a clan/community which focused exclusively on teaching new players I think. And there were clans which took in less skilled players and taught them, instead of headhunting for the most skilled players around regardless if they were actually assholes ingame.

Yeah, I remember when I first started out playing the game more than two years ago. People were more friendly and were willing to help others. When you say the "current elite players", who do you refer too? I hope no one in the MiT clan or myself =/. MiT has had, throughout it's almost two year span, recruited fairly new players, to teach not only the mechanics of nexuiz, but as well as teamwork. I remember when I first joined MiT after my...well, rather failed clan I had started when I first started playing. It was only slash, azruelli, and SoldierX. Now, none of those three people play nexuiz anymore, I remain the only original leader of MiT that plays. And not even as often at that, at least, not nearly as often as I used to.

I guess the point I'm trying to make across is, things HAVE changed over the last two years for sure. Why? I can probably name a few reasons, but will not for the sake of trying to avoid other conflicts, but all said and done, you cannot change what has already happened. Obviously we all can agree that something is wrong. Maybe it's the lack of communication with new players, as stated before in this thread? I don't think the new "elite players" really care about helping new players, which I find odd, because most of the players I know would help any new players. Maybe those players that I know are the original "elite" players, and the players you refer to are the "Public heros", AKA somewhat skilled public server players .

[fragit]

sup guise,

I am probably the noob you are talking about. You should be pleased to know however that I am speccing a good percentage of the time. Know who I spec? the players with the most frags and the most caps. maybe points matter, maybe they dont. i am slowly getting used to weapon switching combinations, and overusing the bunny hop is vital to learn the handling.

and about protecting the flag carrier: there needs to be a way to program in some flag carrier protection points, because as it stands, you score more to accidentally kill the fc and take the flag.

and as for the minsta and the hook... that should be named something else, not nexuiz. its a different game. call it spider-quake or something. at any rate, the weapon matches and the minsta matches are like comparing a snickers bar to a log of poop or something. its a different game altogether so it should be called something else. How about decide what nexuiz is and improve that instead of struggling with an identity. Weps demand more varied skills, and thus a slower and more robust learning curve. This potentially extends the lifecycle of the average player, and should fill some of the empty servers as Nexuiz population increases.

i am located in europe and i find that euro servers use the absolute worst maps imo. i prefer the hoctf servers even though there is sometimes considerable lag. also, since i am american i understand the vibe of americans better dont ask me why. there are good players worth watching all over the place.

as long as this game should thrive, there will always be noobs. the day theres no noobs its the end of nexuiz... or maybe the universe. i personally think the word is stupid given there are infinite subjects of study in the universe. as long as we live we are gonna be 'noobs' at something. as M.J. would have said.. 'its ignorant'

[halogene]

If the system hasn't changed, use setreport cl_handicap 2, so the server know how to calculate your damage, otherwise it use your handicap value at connect time.

Cool, thank you very much for that info - didn't know that! That explains A LOT! :o)

[Flying Steel]

If popularity or average skill levels are going down, you can't blame it on the players, for not teaching other players how the game works. I mean, they're players, not teachers! It's nice if they are helpful, but if most folks aren't getting how things work, it is either the fault of the documentation/tutorials or the game is too hard/unfun for them.

And the game does already have a narrated tutorial level, campaign and customizable bots, so it probably isn't a lack of teaching tools. And the games ships with docs for beginners.

[The mysterious Mr. 4m]

sup guise,

I am probably the noob you are talking about. You should be pleased to know however that I am speccing a good percentage of the time. Know who I spec? the players with the most frags and the most caps. maybe points matter, maybe they dont. i am slowly getting used to weapon switching combinations, and overusing the bunny hop is vital to learn the handling.

and about protecting the flag carrier: there needs to be a way to program in some flag carrier protection points, because as it stands, you score more to accidentally kill the fc and take the flag.

and as for the minsta and the hook... that should be named something else, not nexuiz. its a different game. call it spider-quake or something. at any rate, the weapon matches and the minsta matches are like comparing a snickers bar to a log of poop or something. its a different game altogether so it should be called something else. How about decide what nexuiz is and improve that instead of struggling with an identity. Weps demand more varied skills, and thus a slower and more robust learning curve. This potentially extends the lifecycle of the average player, and should fill some of the empty servers as Nexuiz population increases.

i am located in europe and i find that euro servers use the absolute worst maps imo. i prefer the hoctf servers even though there is sometimes considerable lag. also, since i am american i understand the vibe of americans better dont ask me why. there are good players worth watching all over the place.

as long as this game should thrive, there will always be noobs. the day theres no noobs its the end of nexuiz... or maybe the universe. i personally think the word is stupid given there are infinite subjects of study in the universe. as long as we live we are gonna be 'noobs' at something. as M.J. would have said.. 'its ignorant'

I think Fragit's post shows an important thing: Nexuiz started out as plain old deathmatch - with a Nexuiz touch to it. CTF was added later as an enhancement, like MinstaGib. Today it's a given and new players may be attracted by several, conflicting concepts - playing in a team or as a Lone Wolf. The DM factor is a mere marginal feature to those who chose Nexuiz because of the Team Play. Others may have chosen it because of the Deathmatch....

I've been playing since 1.1 (about 2005), and i've seen many things change, not only in Nexuiz. Another part is the Linux community that has become "noobier", because of the increasing popularity. The generations also differ in how they're raised.... Now i forgot what i was up to say, so, that shall be all for now. See ya in-game!

[Flying Steel]

I think Fragit's post shows an important thing: Nexuiz started out as plain old deathmatch - with a Nexuiz touch to it. CTF was added later as an enhancement, like MinstaGib. Today it's a given and new players may be attracted by several, conflicting concepts - playing in a team or as a Lone Wolf. The DM factor is a mere marginal feature to those who chose Nexuiz because of the Team Play. Others may have chosen it because of the Deathmatch....

Very true. Also, popular CTF maps are almost all big, open maps, while DM maps are the traditional cramped passageway, close quarters type maps. So the play styles are very different from one to the other.

I've been playing since 1.1 (about 2005), and i've seen many things change, not only in Nexuiz. Another part is the Linux community that has become "noobier", because of the increasing popularity. The generations also differ in how they're raised.... Now i forgot what i was up to say, so, that shall be all for now. See ya in-game!

Also true, IMO, there's a rift between fps gamers who started playing in the late '90s and those who started playing in the early 2000s. Mostly because FPS games changed so much over the turn of the millennium.

[GreEn`mArine]

I dunno what I can say... I read most of the replies. Myself, I am probably one of the best examples for one of these "elitist oldschool players", as they have been called here. Well, ok, I've been doing stuff to help the community enough, like the In-Depth podcast or being involved in tournament/ladders etc., however, apart from that, I also think that a lot has changed in the community.

I started playing the game when it came out in 2005, and the reason why I still play it is
1) I love the weapon/health system and the physics
2) I am good at it, at least much better than in any other game, if I'd start playing another game

Naturally, at the beginning, only reason 1 was important. What was fun when playing the game was that the group of players (who are the good oldschool players now) started playing with a common skill level ... we were all newbs, knew each other, almost noone came from a Quake or UnrealTournament background. Those who did, did have a skill advantage back then and still have it now, referring to kojak for example. The others just became better by themselves. Nobody taught us anything, and no1 asked others to be taught something, simply because this was not necessary, and there were little outstanding players who actually could have taught other players something. Having fun was the most important thing back then. Players like me played on public servers all the time, there were a few ladder servers once I started the ladder, but this didn't mean that I'd avoid FFA servers in any way.

When looking at the situation now... well, it's so different, I dunno where to start. First of all, the scene on public servers is horrible (to me). However, there are different perspectives on this.
1) "Horrible" could refer to what is being done aside from the actual game-play. I mean all the bad things, like stupid provocative nicknames, trashtalk chat, aimbotting, team killing, extremely unskilled players killing the balance between 2 teams, etc. These are effects that are, imo, introduced by the new kinds of players, I mean, the idiots among of these. I do sometimes think that the server has been set-up by a scientist team that tries what happens when apes play the game
2) The other problem is probably caused by my expectations (about actual quality of game-play). At the very beginning when I started playing, by no doubt, the games have been just as chaotic and stupid and with little skill as they are right now on some FFA servers. However, I didn't bother, I was not good back then either. Then, over time, as the players I played with (and me) became better, we were probably still playing quite chaotic. However, from today's perspective, when I play with very sophisticated players in a team in #nexuiz.pickup games, joining public servers has no appeal at all. Also the facts that the public servers don't use fullbright skins makes me not wanna play on them (I know this is a personal issue I have, simply because I am too used to this big nexus model).

As an effect, I only play on FFA servers when I'm in desperate need to play the game a bit (and cannot find any players to play with me in the "elite private scene". And yes, in this case the quote from Oblivion does apply to me, too:

The current crop of 'elite' players do little to help newbies. Once upon a time, experienced players would go out of their way to teach a noob how to bunnyjump, how to laserjump, etc. Now they just waltz into a server, kill all the noobs, and leave. Usually without a SINGLE word spoken. Or worse, brag about it.

Obviously, I am not someone who is bragging about anything, but I do occasionally drop the line "this is not a chat program" when I am bugged by players asking me questions all the time instead of doing that over IRC or forum PM. I do realize that this behaviour, not talking to other people on the server, leaving when not getting enough frags or being killed in stupid situations, not saying hi and bye sometimes, does appear snobby to others, and I agree, it is snobby. My behaviour would certainly be different if there were more people online and playing who are of the "old kind", the guys I knew back then. But they aren't. I dare to say that over 75% of the old school players have left Nexuiz and are not playing regularly anymore. Since I am spending most of my time to play others in tournaments or pickup games, and being on FFA servers only little, I do not think that investing time to get to know the current crop of regularly playing players, and to be come acquainted (or friends) with them, is still worth it, considering that I'd have to "endure" many bad games on stupid space maps, in order to achieve that.

I also think that ego may be an important factor. Back then, when players I knew, and me, were already a little bit better, we did not mind at all to teach newcomers stuff. By doing this we often got these players to actually stick to the game. We didn't really know yet what "skill" or "ego" was, we didn't mind. Nowadays players can be having the attitude like "hey I am better than you, I don't care about you". These are simply egoistic players who became good in the game one way or the other and don't care to share their knowledge. But I think that this only applies to players who were already skilled in aiming and movement from other (quake) games and got good in Nexuiz quickly, and not players who once had no skill at all and had to get that skill in Nexuiz "the hard way", as these are the people who know how valuable advice is. By the way, this ego does develop once you start playing competitive matches and losing or winning games starts being more than "just fun", but a goal you want to achieve. Oh, and another thing would be the thrustworthyness ... sometimes investing time to help players that come along with the nickname "." and spam a lot, well, does not seem feasible. Many players in Nexuiz come, demand help, and disappear just as quickly.

I'd go as far as to compare my situation to reallife. If I was considered a "old fart" (let's say a retired person), would I then go into the club full of teenagers and persons in their twenties? I probably wouldn't. Their style would not suit me. Instead I would go to the chess club and play with the few other old farts who haven't died yet (haven't stopped playing Nexuiz yet) and enjoy this instead.

Also, on a side-note: the private scene is not so private in my opinion. The nexuiz documentation contains links to the tournament and ladder page. This forum contains several threads promoting the #nexuiz.pickup channel and tourneys that are going on. There's not much more you can do.

Summary:
Now you know my personal perspective. I wrote this down because I think you might want to know, and I do think that other players with a similar "career" as mine might think the same. The old elitist players have grown older, they have a job now or are busy with studying and can afford less time nowadays. Because of this, many actually stopped playing the game, and the ones who are left do play with their own kind.

[The mysterious Mr. 4m]

Very true. Also that about the scientists, i think.
I also think one of the reasons some people started playing is, because Nexuiz had hardly any competition in its league, which has changed by now, so those who chose it because there was no (or hardly any) alternative (other games wouldn't even install, for example) drifted away, because they didn't like Nexuiz as much as i did, for example.
I like the fact that there is so much variety to the gameplay and that it's developing continuously. There's always ups and downs and currently other communities are suffering, too.... i think there's a lot of changes going on very fast now; new technologies, lots of new ideas, social movements, politics, economy - like a disturbed bee hive, swarming all over the place. Entropy seems to be increasing, instead of getting less - very odd. o_0

Well.... i don't think Nexuiz has "alternatives". I've been stuck with it for several years and i don't really want to complain, it's doing good enough. Games are developed for many people and not just me (i want guns that shoot alligators, for example). Others differ so much from what i want, i'm very happy to have Nexuiz. Never been that true to any other game, or.... to anything really. I have been trying other games, but never caught on to anything. I'd rather make my own game. There was a time when a bug caused players to get stuck in one another and that one time, on Bleach, it was Yellow Robot, if i recall correctly, who coined the term "Stuck and proud!", and that's what i am, because Nexuiz is a great game, without even considering the shear forces pulling at each of the edges all the time, and it's not backed by a money-spitting machinery! Nexuiz, You rock.

[halogene]

this is so... so... true!! *sob*

*sniff*

anyway, my skill level isn't high enough yet that I wouldn't care teaching newbies stuff. Guess I will need a lot of practice to reach such a level, not sure if I even want that in the first place. :o)

I started to say "New to Nexuiz? Feel free to ask me if you want to learn some tricks." at the end of games, but did not get much feedback up to now. Didn't play much, though.