new players to nexuiz

[Grasshopper]

This is just my observation about new players lately .

It seems that new players (noobs) , Dont have the attention span or the want , to know how to play better . Now im not one of the best players in nexuiz but i think i do pretty good overall . I have noticed recently over the past few months that most of the new players dont seem to want to know about all the Nexuiz physics and movement or tricks that separate the skilled from the aimless running around with shotgun . The other day i was accused of using an aimbot ( like most veterans are as well ) but the same player also wanted to know how i move so fast and jump so high . in his eyes i must have been cheating to some extent . but i tried explaining that it was just plain experience from playing over a 2 year span . when i came in to nexuiz during 2.3 i also wondered how these thing were possible . I asked and got answers with some slight training . Over time i developed my own style with the knowledge of how to perform what was needed to to play better than others .
Now i understand that often times people play less serious than i do , and some even more serious than me . but when i try to train or show someone how to move with basic skill or help show them that default FOV and mouse sensativity may be better with other settings , i get a lack of enthusiasm . Its like they are here to waste time and not enjoy a game fully . I find it more fun to use the physics to my advantage . Hence i like maps that arent open , mostly . usage of skill seems to be the way to go for me as far astrafing around corners to lose an enemy , and if i cant ,use what i know about about weapon combos . for the most part i can just out run enemies withous a single shot fired . and that brings me to open maps and noobs . They all want to play wide open maps that have a large FOV . i think its because they cant move , and they cant sit with a nex in one spot . Its easier that way . i remember it being that way when i was new to nexuiz . I only got better because i wanted more of a challenge . So i learned how to move without hook ( wich i used to love ) . now i find it boring . trick jumps and movement skill is far more entertaining than camping and hooking around . But the thing im ranting about is , it doesnt seem to be catching on like when i was playing . New players dont seem to have the initiative that i did to learn how to play better . Thus , it seems that old school player get bored with playing anymore because there is no chase .
Im not trying to make point or say im better . im just going off what i have seen in the pubs lately over the past few months . i still enjoy the game because there are some who want to play more skilled and private games . I just wish that somehow new players could taste what its like to play more efficiently more often . i do volunteer to teach people what i know , but when they accuse me of cheating without letting me show them how to do it exactly like i do it with skill, then its hard to have any future competition .
i just wanted to put this out there for some brainstorming on how to make new players understand how nexuiz works . not all maps have to be wide open with a nex for it to be fun .
-thoughts?

[C.Brutail]

It always goes this, with every game in time. Just get over it, and if you don't find public entertaining anymore, just use #nexuiz.pickup.

[halogene]

...Too long, but did read...

so you are basically saying that new players lack the drive of learning how to effectively utilize Nexuiz movement physics? Better keep it short and simple ;o)

My experiences are mixed. When I am playing and notice people really don't know about advanced stuff, then I offer to help them. Sometimes they don't care, sometimes they say "yeah, show me" and then they don't follow my advice.

But it also happened that I invited one player that showed interest in learning how to do tricks to a 1on1 coaching session and when I connected to the 1on1 server I recommended, half of the other players from the previous game had connected too and were following my advices and learning new techniques. That was really cool Bo)

So there always are people out there who are open for advice. Keep showing them how Nexuiz works, Newbies need experienced players to show them tricks. If this hadn't happened to me some years ago, I'd probably not be playing Nexuiz at all at the moment.

[Samual]

And this is where making a balance for 2.6 is perhaps one of the hardest things possible I have to essentially make the balance more appealing to new players while still maintaining competitive aspects while still keeping our current player base... DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FUCKING HARD THAT IS? Worst yet, everyone has different opinions on how it should be done and only about 2 or 3 of them are really credible in my eyes for commenting on balance under all those aspects. Basically, fml.

Seriously though I did have the idea of making the physics smoother, pretty sure this could be helpful to new players (They might like the movement then, I don't know) -- But the community didn't like the idea of the physics changing again. As for balance, I tried to make the weapons more fun and I made the shotgun and laser fairly weak compared to all other weapons.. This really means that the only way you can do pretty good in a match is if you get a weapon unlike in 2.5.2. (BTW this is probably why you see noobs running around with shotguns, it's too strong -- Well rather, maybe it doesn't make them think about getting another weapon as much?) As for other changes I can do which benefit new players, again I want to make the weapons as fun as possible to use.... Example being bringing back the 3 burst electro secondary, etc.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Flying Steel]

Listen to me on this finally people, I have played Nexuiz since 2.3 but never played Quake or similar "old school" shooters. I know both sides.

It isn't that new players want a shallow, easy game you master in an hour. Many, many times the current player base want a deep gameplay experience. BUT, they want it to be INTUITIVE. They want complex things that actually MAKE SENSE and are somewhat BELIEVABLE. It doesn't have to be realistic, but they don't want something that is fucking insanely unrealistic, buglike, senseless physics shitasticness either.


Examples of Good:

Running around, what is it? It's how you get around most of the time in RL.
Jumping, what is it? Same as above.
Guns, what are they? They are projectile weapons like the ones we know and love from RL.
Cover, what is it? Shit you hide behind.
Grappling Hook, what is it? A rope with a hook on the end, you can swing on or climb up it.
Jet Pack, what is it? A small helicopter/hovercraft, like the ones we know and love from RL.
Ramp Jumping, what is it? A jump, like in skateboarding, skiing, snowboarding, what idiots do with their cars, etc.
Wall Jumping, what is it? It's that Parkour stuff everyone's doing! Jumping off a vertical surface to gain a little height, IOW.


Examples of EVIL:

Bunny Hopping, what is it? It's umm, some sort of bouncing, only. . . you turn into a hovercraft that hops, lika hover bunny err. . . I dunno it's just somethin' ya' do 'cause your just so 1337.
Weapon Jumping, what is it? It's like exploding yourself only you don't die and you don't explode and it makes you run really fast and fly super high like a superman bunny err. . . super bunny explosion. . .
Strafe Jumping, what is it? Dunno, it's like. . . when you turn a corner really fast and . . . the super bunnies! yes the invisible super bunnies push you to make you go faster but only if you're hoping and turning "juuuuust wight".

And this is where making a balance for 2.6 is perhaps one of the hardest things possible I have to essentially make the balance more appealing to new players while still maintaining competitive aspects while still keeping our current player base...

Sorry man, but you have to make a choice at some point. The old players or the new players. You can have competitive aspects either way, but if the vets are unwilling to adapt to letting go of old physics bugs from the quake games then you have to choose. New or old, simple as that.

Seriously though I did have the idea of making the physics smoother, pretty sure this could be helpful to new players (They might like the movement then, I don't know)

Last I tried, your physics greatly reduced friction versus 2.5 physics. I'm more than okay with that on its own, I have a special love for hovercraft games like the battlezone remakes. BUT, the character models are essentially infantry or ordinary people, not hovercraft or people wearing socks in the mall. In that context it is confusing and unintuitive to new players when combined with your physics. AND, the game still has so many close quarters maps, you constantly bounce off the walls. To make the physics more friendly to newcomers, you must make it more like people physics- smoother acceleration curve but better traction/stopping.

As for balance. . . . I made the shotgun and laser fairly weak compared to all other weapons..

But that will NOT attract new players! New players don't know where the weapons are, they can't move as fast to get to them, they can't fight as well without a real weapon, and won't even live that long once they have a real weapon! You're telling them there's a paddle upstream after you've thrown them in shit's creek with only cement shoes on.

And newer games that new players are used to are much better at providing very good starting weapons, more often than not they start you out with a weapon that is also a pickup because it is effective enough to be that as well.

[PCLizard]

Examples of EVIL:

Bunny Hopping, what is it? It's umm, some sort of bouncing, only. . . you turn into a hovercraft that hops, lika hover bunny err. . . I dunno it's just somethin' ya' do 'cause your just so 1337.
Weapon Jumping, what is it? It's like exploding yourself only you don't die and you don't explode and it makes you run really fast and fly super high like a superman bunny err. . . super bunny explosion. . .
Strafe Jumping, what is it? Dunno, it's like. . . when you turn a corner really fast and . . . the super bunnies! yes the invisible super bunnies push you to make you go faster but only if you're hoping and turning "juuuuust wight".

You obviously lack the knowledge of how NEXUIZ movement works. It's not like quake, where you gain speed by moving forward AND left/right. In nexuiz, "strafe jumping" can only be applied, to where it has any gain in acceleration, in the first few jumps. After that, you only gain speed by moving forward in a certain direction. When you turn, you decelerate depending on how you move the mouse and what buttons you press. There is no turning "juuuuuuuuuust wight". There is no "sweet spot". The right area to look at is rather dynamic and easier to find, and ultimately master. And even then, when you're moving forward, you slowly gain speed, not extremely fast.

I thought an original aspect of the game was to be "fast paced", but can you really be fast paced without bunnyhopping/circlestrafing? It sounds like you want the physics in nexuiz to match the physics you would find in, for example, CS:S, or Halo. If people wanted to play something that have the physics you think would be ideal, the game entirely would be more realistic. If they (the new players) wanted to play a realistic game, would they play nexuiz? Or would they play a game like crysis?

It also sounds like you're leaning away towards the whole "grab a stronger weapon/health/armor". This also takes away a part of the game that's been around for a while I would believe. This is also starting to sound a lot like CS:S........

[Flying Steel]

You obviously lack the knowledge of how NEXUIZ movement works. It's not like quake, where you gain speed by moving forward AND left/right. In nexuiz, "strafe jumping" can only be applied, to where it has any gain in acceleration, in the first few jumps. After that, you only gain speed by moving forward in a certain direction.

I know that already, but it doesn't make it anymore intuitive or deep. It's just another wonderful "trick" that new players can't figure out, that they have to be taught.

When you turn, you decelerate depending on how you move the mouse and what buttons you press. There is no turning "juuuuuuuuuust wight". There is no "sweet spot".

Well it's not technically strafe jumping, but if you turn a corner hopping just so, any deceleration is very negligible. It's an essential skill that I've picked up over the years of playing and reading forum posts here, but it isn't really intuitive. When noobs see me doing it or another vet doing it (or rather witness the speed we have attained by maintaining our speed through corners) it's just another demoralizing "hack" to them.

And that is not an unreasonable assumption for them to make. Because what we're doing isn't obvious, intuitive or much like anything you would do in reality. So it looks and plays too much like a hack, and not something they could just figure out or would even want to imitate in the first place.

I thought an original aspect of the game was to be "fast paced", but can you really be fast paced without bunnyhopping/circlestrafing?

YES! A million different ways you can! Fast paced just means fast paced.

You could eliminate those two things and then make the game even faster by adding or increasing other speed based features. Take sauerbraten for example, it's faster than nexuiz, but doesn't appear to deliver any advantage in bunny hopping.

Or you could rebalance and better integrate existing "mutator" features like the hook and jet, which were never fully integrated with the default balance. Or do that and add new ones, or create variants of those, etc. You could add a new, hover boots pickup, vehicle or character class, with high speed - low friction performance somewhat similar to current hopping.

It doesn't matter as long as whatever it is, is intuitive to new players. Something loosely based on something you could do in reality is never a bad starting place and will likely look "cooler" in the end too.

If people wanted to play something that have the physics you think would be ideal, the game entirely would be more realistic. If they (the new players) wanted to play a realistic game, would they play nexuiz? Or would they play a game like crysis?

Well for one, crysis costs some money and has much higher system requirements. That's a noteworthy difference outside of gameplay that probably attracts new players, it just can't KEEP them playing, which is the age old problem. Similarly, the really good looking free shooters are mostly very fast paced in an old school sort of way, so Nexuiz isn't much different from its "competition" in its little "niche in the market".

Besides that, some might want a simpler game or a faster game. But Nexuiz isn't really simple, and isn't only a fast paced game. It is a game with some really unintuitive, tricky, bizarre looking movement "features" that are obviously turning people off.

It also sounds like you're leaning away towards the whole "grab a stronger weapon/health/armor". This also takes away a part of the game that's been around for a while I would believe. This is also starting to sound a lot like CS:S........

So what? What does it matter if Nexuiz had a feature (in default gameplay) like whatever "CS:S" is (cascading style sheets? ) rather than the millions of free quake engine based offshoots out there? What if it eventually added another 50% to the skilled Nexuiz player base, would you still consider this some sort of deadly sin?

You could always have a mutator where everyone just starts with a laser.

[PCLizard]

Well, if the movement were to change, it would completely ruin it for not only myself, but other people I know, some that don't play for competitive reasons. I thought that the movement added depth to the game, but according to you, it seems that no one wants to learn it. What's the point of a game if you can't get "into it", you know..learn more about it. If people don't want to do that, then they would only want to play for fun, and even though I'm not saying nexuiz isn't fun (It's the first fast paced FPS that I deeply enjoyed), there are other games out there that are free that have little to no learning curve. I think you want to replace the current movement with something much easier and less of a learning curve...which sure, more people MAY like. But even then...I'm sure there will be something else you would have to "tone down", which is probably the items, or the weapons themselves. Even if these changes would have a 50% gain in the "skilled player base", the actual "skills" would be entirely different, which would ultimately lead not to an increase of the current "skilled player base", but the death of the current skilled player base and a birth of a new skilled player base. Basically...nexuiz would be a different game, I suppose. Then, you must ask yourself, what matters most? Building onto what's currently there, in terms of the gameplay, or completely recreate it to be completely different to gain more players, and probably more popularity.

I'm not against change, but I stand for not only the competitive community, but for what I thought nexuiz used to be.

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry I didn't point it out, but when I said CS:S, I meant Counter Strike Source =P.

[Flying Steel]

Well, if the movement were to change, it would completely ruin it for not only myself, but other people I know, some that don't play for competitive reasons.

And that lack of flexibility is why I told samual a few posts ago he had to choose between old and new players. If old player's won't budge a single quake unit, then there can be no compromise, and popularity will continue to degrade at its present rate or thereabout.

I thought that the movement added depth to the game, but according to you, it seems that no one wants to learn it.

Did you read the first post in this thread? It's not just me who's saying it. It's actually been said quite a few times now over a number of threads.

What's the point of a game if you can't get "into it", you know..learn more about it.

I totally agree. But I don't think that's the issue at all. Having that kind of gameplay 'depth' you are describing and having intuitive gameplay are not at all mutually exclusive.

there are other games out there that are free that have little to no learning curve. I think you want to replace the current movement with something much easier and less of a learning curve...which sure, more people MAY like.

Nope, not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is Nexuiz bases its learning curve on weird tricks that are counter-intuitive and look like cheating, because they basically got their start as exploits in a game engine from a dozen years ago. And this is the main cause of new players not wanting to learn the game. It isn't that the learning curve is too steep.

Even if these changes would have a 50% gain in the "skilled player base", the actual "skills" would be entirely different, which would ultimately lead not to an increase of the current "skilled player base", but the death of the current skilled player base and a birth of a new skilled player base. Basically...nexuiz would be a different game, I suppose.

Yes, for two dramatic inflexibilities of the current skilled player base. One is that they only play if there is bunny hopping. Two is that they will leave even if this only happens to default Nexuiz. They won't play mutators, or on servers with "classic physics" or whatever. They'll just leave.

Then, you must ask yourself, what matters most? Building onto what's currently there, in terms of the gameplay, or completely recreate it to be completely different to gain more players, and probably more popularity.

But before you ask yourself that, remember that ultimately popularity = development.

I'm not against change, but I stand for not only the competitive community, but for what I thought nexuiz used to be.

A bunny hopping simulator? Seriously?

[Yoda almighty]

There are too many people in the world for everyone to have what they want. If more people realized that, the world would be a healthier place.

one of the main problems with open source projects is people can influence what the end result could be. and sometimes this leads to abuse of this, where some people are unwilling to sacrifice what they want, and they clash with the other people who aren't willing to sacrifice what they want either. This leads to a very unhealthy atmosphere for development, and for community.

as far as I can tell, that is what is happening here. the veteran players are unwilling to sacrifice what they want to see in Nexuiz, and unwilling to compromise with the new players, who have their own idea of what they want Nexuiz to be. The bad atmosphere this creates might be driving away even more players, thus making the problem worse.

As a player of Nexuiz, I trust the developers to create an excellent game. They have done a good job so far, and I have no doubt they will continue to do so. What Nexuiz becomes is up to them, and by arguing like this, you are only making their job harder.

maybe if both sided came to a compromise on their own, and presented it to the developers in an organized manner, then it might be taken into consideration, and make Nexuiz a better game all around. but to reach that compromise, BOTH sides will have to sacrifice a little.

just a thought.