Bad winners?

[ai]

A useful thing is also the "g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance" setting, since it won't allow people to switch to bigger teams (you can, however, go to smaller teams). so my favorite server setup for team games (FFA Server) would be g_balance_teams=1 and g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance=1.

There's one flaw with that imo, what if there's a bigger and a smaller team, say 6 vs 4. But there's very good players in the smaller team and you would need to join the 6 players to even it out. Now I'm not saying that is common but it could happen and also has happened to me a few times. Then the g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance wouldn't allow it. Sure if those players have any commond sense they should change team but what if they are a clan or whatever or they just are too stubborn to listen.
There's obviously flaws in the auto team balance in CTF but just brought this up as a pointer.

Actuallt scratch that. I have now been playing a lot CTF testing stuff and I've come to the conclusion that g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance=1 is totaly worthless. In my opinion it's way better without this setting... why? Well here's the deal.
In every public server now that I've been on have this setting enabled which prevents teams to be uneaven numbered. But this is not a good thing to have as people join the server randomly and in many cases all the good players are in one team and all the bad players in the other. When I play and see this happening I want to change to the other team to even it out but can't. IMO this setting will make new players abbandon Nexuiz instead of thinking it's a good and even game. This has happened to me A LOT, so I recommend any server that has enabled this setting to turn it off. That way at least there will be a chance for people who want to even teams out to do that.

And now to something that isn't just refered to CTF but to this topic is that I would want that voting for mapchange, kicking people etc. should be enabled by default. And I'm not the only one who thinks that. Recently there has been a lot of people killing their own teammates just so they could get a hold of the flag and score some points. That annoys people a lot and I've seen them complain and trying to kick them but couldn't as the option is not enabled.
But also in my case I accidently and without any idea have picked up a guy who hates my guts. I apparently have a special aura or something that inspires people to hate me I have a guy that as soon as he see's me joining the same server as him he starts to spam bad words and sometimes just generally spam and annoy people. Now it doesn't bother me at all but think about the others. And also recently he starts to kill me everytime we're on the same team, and in CTF on Facing Worlds that can bother you as when you grab the enemy's flag and your own teammate nex'es you down from your base. And he really aims for me. The only thing I can do is to change my name and model to hide myself. And so this lead to a conflict we had today in CTF.. As I changed my model and name he started to shoot random people and then everyone just started to kill each other in my team, ally and foe alike. Esteel was also playing on that server and left cause there was no point in continuing playing. Now I have no idea why he hates me and I don't even care.. but I don't want other people to get involved because of guys like that and their issues.

So I say, enable kick-voting as default and g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance to off. This is my opinion until a better system shows up.

[old_codger]

But also in my case I accidently and without any idea have picked up a guy who hates my guts. I apparently have a special aura or something that inspires people to hate me

Yeah, I've noticed that about you too...

I have a guy that as soon as he see's me joining the same server as him he starts to spam bad words and sometimes just generally spam and annoy people. Now it doesn't bother me at all but think about the others. And also recently he starts to kill me everytime we're on the same team, and in CTF on Facing Worlds that can bother you as when you grab the enemy's flag and your own teammate nex'es you down from your base. And he really aims for me. The only thing I can do is to change my name and model to hide myself. And so this lead to a conflict we had today in CTF.. As I changed my model and name he started to shoot random people and then everyone just started to kill each other in my team, ally and foe alike. Esteel was also playing on that server and left cause there was no point in continuing playing. Now I have no idea why he hates me and I don't even care.. but I don't want other people to get involved because of guys like that and their issues.

I was playing at the same time. I was 'verbatim', or, rather, 'VB (not OC)', because, as is obvious, there is absolutely no connection between verbatim and old_codger. These are the lengths I've had to go to avoid the nutcase I mentioned above. Eventually he'll probably get bored, grow up, or his mummy will find out what he's doing and send him to bed without any supper.

Actually, when reading your description a horrible thought occurred... I wonder if he thinks you're me? I certainly hope not but, if so, I apologise although, frankly I've done nothing to apologise for.

So I say, enable kick-voting as default and g_balance_teams_prevent_imbalance to off. This is my opinion until a better system shows up.

Personally I still like the idea of preventing imbalance to enforce 'common sense' because when the map changes it has a chance to even things up in the next round. I don't think it's any accident that the CTF servers with 'balance' enforced, (initially, at least), are the ones with the highest numbers of players. People DO like that aspect of the game.

I agree about kicking people off who 'troll', for want of a better phrase.

[GreEn`mArine]

maybe it would be a good idea to have a new votable command (or that command gets executed every 5 minutes or maybe more often) which does this:

- determine the FPH (Frags per hour, or frags per minute, or whatever, to determine which players are good and which not) of all players in all teams (spectators excluded of course).

- remix the teams so that both teams have about the same amount of FPH. this will ensure that both teams have skilled and unskilled players.

Of course this will need a though algorithm, since there can be many exceptions (e.g. uneven number of skilled players, etc.).

That command could be called "smartbalance" or similar , not just dealing with the number of players of the teams, but with their skills, too.

As I mentioned before, players should only be moved once they got fragged to avoid confusion and frustration !

[ai]

I totaly agree with everything you just said.

[old_codger]

maybe it would be a good idea to have a new votable command (or that command gets executed every 5 minutes or maybe more often) which does this:

- determine the FPH (Frags per hour, or frags per minute, or whatever, to determine which players are good and which not) of all players in all teams (spectators excluded of course).

- remix the teams so that both teams have about the same amount of FPH. this will ensure that both teams have skilled and unskilled players.

Yeah, I can see the point of that as a server option but, personally, I still prefer the existing option. The thing is most people don't mind losing as long as they realise it's just for a round or two.

My own preference is that the server initially balances the player numbers but people have the option to change. If you then get the few idiots that constantly change to always win then they can be kicked off by a simpler 'kick' option, if such a thing is easy to implement.

I played last night on a server that forced balance and esteele made the point in the game that it was getting boring being either on the winning or losing side which had been 'decided' by the balancing algorithm that had 'got it wrong', i.e. placing the good players on the same side a few times in a row. But it has to be said that it then changed so that the teams were more balanced. There's also a lot to be said for just 'sticking with it' as someone said before.

[Dokujisan]

I agree with many points in this thread, and I wanted to add my 2...er....15 cents or something.

I've been playing Nexuiz for the past month or two. On that popular CTF server (Elite CTF or something, it's the same one everyone plays on). Lately, I've typically been one of the top scorers, on average. Though I have higher ping than most (150+ usually) and I have limited hardware and play on the lowest graphics settings. Still, I've managed to get pretty competitive at Nexuiz in a short time.

As a person who can hold his own in Nexuiz, it absolutely bothers me if teams are not balanced. I don't like being on the dominant team, and I don't really like feeling like it is only me versus four low-pinging, dominant players. If I am on the dominating team, I tend to prefer changing teams (F3 and then F5) to balance things out.

I recommend that other people do the same! If you are a good player and you are on a team that is dominating. Hit F3 and then F5.

It would be great if the server had this built-in (as an option, of course). It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to program. It would involve some kind of user score tracking. It won't be perfect, but any effort at balancing teams is better than nothing.

Even better if the server keeps a log of the past past week of player activity and uses that information to provide balance.

I personally enjoy competing against top guys, even if the guys are out-pinging me, but I can easily say that my favorite games are those that have really balanced competition, where the scores are really close and it is back and forth. That pushes me to be a better player.

What I don't like is when there are four good players with low ping versus just me and 3 completely new players. Then it's not a very enjoyable game. I like being an underdog, but sometimes it is just crazy, where I'm spending most of my time looking for a weapon, and I am going back and forth between offense and defense.

When playing with new players, teammates can work against you without intending to. An example of this is when they take all of the weapons in the base, even the ones they don't need, and then they die 5 seconds later. Meanwhile, I'm standing next to them and I only have a shotgun, and I'm supposed to fight off four guys attacking the base with nex and rockets. Newer teammates can be one of the biggest challenges in Nexuiz CTF. If teams are very unbalanced, then it can seem like your own teammates are working for the opposing team at times (not purposefully, of course...they are just new to the game).

So please... if you are a good player.... have a heart...have a spine...press F3 and F5 often. Until Nexuiz has this built in, make it your responsibility to balance the teams.

[Dokujisan]

I also agree with what GreenMarine said in his last post.

"smartbalance"...sounds good to me.

Of course this will need a though algorithm, since there can be many exceptions (e.g. uneven number of skilled players, etc.).

As you suggest, the hard part is to implement this during the game as players join while a game is in progress. Your suggestion about waiting for someone to die might not work well, because you would have to wait for the magical moment when those two players are dead at the same time in order to swap them between teams. I don't see that happening.

Perhaps a 5 second warning would be nice...

"You are about to switch teams for balanced gameplay.... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1..."

[old_codger]

I agree with many points in this thread, and I wanted to add my 2...er....15 cents or something.

I've been playing Nexuiz for the past month or two. On that popular CTF server (Elite CTF or something, it's the same one everyone plays on). Lately, I've typically been one of the top scorers, on average. Though I have higher ping than most (150+ usually) and I have limited hardware and play on the lowest graphics settings. Still, I've managed to get pretty competitive at Nexuiz in a short time.

Congrats... and welcome

As a person who can hold his own in Nexuiz, it absolutely bothers me if teams are not balanced. I don't like being on the dominant team, and I don't really like feeling like it is only me versus four low-pinging, dominant players. If I am on the dominating team, I tend to prefer changing teams (F3 and then F5) to balance things out.

That is really the best way but, as has been said, common sense ain't that common.

I recommend that other people do the same! If you are a good player and you are on a team that is dominating. Hit F3 and then F5.

It would be great if the server had this built-in (as an option, of course). It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to program. It would involve some kind of user score tracking. It won't be perfect, but any effort at balancing teams is better than nothing.

Even better if the server keeps a log of the past past week of player activity and uses that information to provide balance.

Haven't studiedthe code but I imagine that would be impossible with the current setup. Not because of any coding as such, just because the server doesn't keep track of who you are. I've had about 5 screen names in the past few months so how would the server know who I am?

Part of the attraction of nex is that anyone can join and 'jump straight in'. If we had some kind of joining routine like sauerbraten, (IIRC), it means that some people won't bother which would be a shame.

I personally enjoy competing against top guys, even if the guys are out-pinging me, but I can easily say that my favorite games are those that have really balanced competition, where the scores are really close and it is back and forth. That pushes me to be a better player.

What I don't like is when there are four good players with low ping versus just me and 3 completely new players. Then it's not a very enjoyable game. I like being an underdog, but sometimes it is just crazy, where I'm spending most of my time looking for a weapon, and I am going back and forth between offense and defense.

When playing with new players, teammates can work against you without intending to. An example of this is when they take all of the weapons in the base, even the ones they don't need, and then they die 5 seconds later. Meanwhile, I'm standing next to them and I only have a shotgun, and I'm supposed to fight off four guys attacking the base with nex and rockets. Newer teammates can be one of the biggest challenges in Nexuiz CTF. If teams are very unbalanced, then it can seem like your own teammates are working for the opposing team at times (not purposefully, of course...they are just new to the game).

Tell me about it!

So please... if you are a good player.... have a heart...have a spine...press F3 and F5 often. Until Nexuiz has this built in, make it your responsibility to balance the teams.

Sometimes it's difficult. I played a game with XanT today and (s)he/it was on top form. In the end I suggested the other 5-6 players all play against (s)he/it. Worked OK until somebody broke ranks and joined him/her/it.

In the end I did my new trick of joining the 'winning' side and playing as a fifth columnist, blasting my new team-mates. I told them I was going to do it if they didn't even the sides up but they didn't react so... funnily enough they didn't seem to see the funny side. No sense of humour, some people.

[tZork]

Heres a scenario that happens preddy often to me. I join a game, join the loosig team and teams balance out better. Next game my team is winning, but not w/o a fight, ie its preddy balanced. 10-50 point from winning somone join, get on my team and offsets the balance. Now for the sake of this argument easy lets say im the best player there. Should i now join the other team and loose a game i worked hard to win, or stay on the team and win easy?

This is a oversimplification since its often hard to say "whos best", peticulary when facoring in how ppl work together. But i hope you get my point.

And do remeber if every game was *perfectly* balanced every game would end on timeout with the score 0-0. i dont think we want that..

At times i find myself in a (team or no team) game against an oponent(s) that clearly outclasses me. Most of the time i rely like those game since thay encurage me to improve and i usualy learn a new trick or two.

The thing that does get my temper into the red zone is ppl w/o manners who curse and swear when gettin fragged or worse yet rack down on ppl they frag (Buhu you sux blabla). That stuff ruines the game far more then a round or two with unbalanced teams IMO.


With that said a better autobalancing system would be nice indeed. I cant see any realy good way to do this w/o a system with registerd users tho. Another option would be not to let anyone join in the middle of a game, ie they stay spectators untill the next game. This would perhaps make it more easy for the players themsels to find a good team balance.

[Dokujisan]

Definitely a registered user system would be ideal, but I don't see that happening.

I guess if you switch names then you would be offsetting the team balancing code because the server wouldn't recognize you. I mean, certainly people could screw up the balancing code if they wanted to, but why would they do that purposefully? At least there would be some kind of balancing effort made by the server. If people want to go out of their way to have unbalanced teams, then I suppose that is their choice. I don't see people doing that right now though...switching teams so the teams are unbalanced.

Should i now join the other team and loose a game i worked hard to win, or stay on the team and win easy?

I did this three times last night. I lost two of those matches. So I guess you know my answer