"... perfect weapon balancing..."

Discuss Nexuiz gameplay here.

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Postby tZork » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:46 am

heres my weaponrant :D

shotty: just remove it as a start weapon if it has to be this useless. you need to shove it down the troat of yer target to have any kinda chance of doing noticable damage.

machinegun: firemodes to similar. more spread and rof on prim, less on secodary. to mutch start ammo, pickups are rarel needed.

electro/greneade launcher: secondary firemodes to similar. yes electro got a combo, but you can set off boucy nades with prim ones too. sticky electro blobs is one easy way to make em a lil diffrent. i also think the gl has a to high dmg/sec (considering its large radius and force)

nexgun: Firaly good as is, but the fast reload by swithcing and back is kinda silly. i would not min less dmg, FORCE and a bit less refire tho.

hagar: hard to use, ammo drainer. perhaps making the visible explotion smaller could help a bit.. once you start fiering you loose sight of yer target. less dmg/higher rof is interesting too, but may be bad for networking.

rl: secondary is as wasted as the one on the nexgun. detornation could well be a key on its own. the newtonian style projectiles made it mutch more interesting in 2.3 perhaps too interesting :P
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Postby TVR » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:48 am

Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.

Electro: Powerful with or without the combo, the electro fire modes are better off used seperately now,
depending on the network latency.

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire need a massive revamp.

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.
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Postby GreEn`mArine » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:25 am

Think about the usage of fast explosive wpns (Hagar) vs. SLow explosive wpns (Rocketlauncher), because of the effect that your explosions detonate the enemies projectiles. This waythe hagar can disable the enemies rocketlauncher.

Rocketluancher may be very strong, but it is really isn't fast and because of this at leat a bit dodgable, at least in mid range fights (well at close range you're lost :P, unless you have the hagar)
Last edited by GreEn`mArine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby divVerent » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:50 am

TVR wrote:Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?


Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?


Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.


I don't like the idea of using calculations to rate weapons - LordHavoc always believes such numbers, but in actual gameplay it's different.

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.


Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.


It isn't that bad, and it works quite well in my hands.

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.


Yes, maybe too many purposes. Not sure if secondary should really have no spread and thus be useful for long range.

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.


From the numbers I would say it is overpowered, but why is it below RL/Nex/Hagar/MG in the stats then?

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].


Well, I learned how to use both modes... it is in fact possible.

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.


Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire need a massive revamp.


Just... what?

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.


I don't consider it that strong from my experience. Maybe because of the high risk of self damage...
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Postby tChr » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:24 am

MG is redicolously overpowered on large open maps (like gretwall)

I still think Crylink sould be armour-pierceng, it would make it much more tactical, and add lots of uniqueness to it.
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Postby dIM » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:51 am

divVerent wrote:...
Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

After reading your post above about the Crylink I tried to use its 2nd fire in some 1on1 games and must say I was pretty suprised how effective it is. Even in midrange u can take an enemy out with it with ease.
And you are right with that comment too: it doesnt look that strong. Without reading here I wouldnt have give it a try...
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Postby tZork » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:09 pm

Yes the crylink is hard to use, but once you do start to hit with it it does real good damage. specialy if you get the leading/prediction right with the primary. i would not mind the primary fiering in a fixed pattern tho, its hard enougth to get it right w/o teh random pattern.
HOF:
<Diablo> the nex is a "game modification"
<Diablo> quake1 never had a weapon like that.
<Vordreller> there was no need for anything over 4GB untill Vista came along
<Samua>]Idea: Fix it? :D
<Samua>Lies, that only applies to other people.
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Postby torus » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:35 pm

I actually love the crylink. Its much more effective at close range than the shotgun, and the secondary is ok for long range even. My only problems with it are the weapon model, which does not suit it, and the secondary fire.

IMO, a better secondary fire for the crylink would be like the MG's firing, but very innacurate. That is to say, very fast, concentrated power, without the pinpoint accuracy of the MG. Right now, I can't think of any where one would use the Crylink nstead of the MG's secondary, because of the strange line of bullets it spits out.
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Postby esteel » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:57 pm

divVerent wrote:Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

Actually it was you..
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... nsystem.qc
I just fixed it to not be exploidable and only set refire time to 1second if switched.
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... nsystem.qc

If you still want this switching feature without being 'exploidable' we need refire fields for each gun or some kind of array so that each gun controls its own refire time but switching to an other gun does work..
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Postby GreEn`mArine » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:25 pm

or your force the gun to stay until the reload has finished. However, if you do so, make sure that it stacks future weapon changes and executes them once reload is over.

So if I fired nexgun I could press "c" for switching to laser while it is reloading, and once reloading finished it will automatically switch to the laser. This way one doesn't have to "time" the weapon switch too.

OTOH I don't really get which "bug" you guys are talking about. I though it was intended that reload time could be shortened to 1 sec (instead of waiting for the whole 1.5 seconds) by switching to another weapon and switching back again.
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