"... perfect weapon balancing..."

[Dokujisan]

I'll comment on the weapons that I feel need improvement.

Laser - I've joked often about how "Nexuiz CTF" mode should be renamed "Nexuiz - Laser jump" because of how much that skill dominates any of the others in CTF. The advanced laser jumping players move way too fast. When they get going, it's difficult to stop them. Unless you are also an awesome laser jumper, or you happen to have a Nex or maybe a Mortar, then you are usually S.O.L. Even with a Nex or mortar, it's still very difficult to stop them.

My Suggestion - Reduce the max speed of players. There's no reason for them to move that fast. Or add landing damage...if they jump too high, too far, or too fast, they could take extra damage as soon as they land (even if they laser immediately upon landing). Rocket Jumping from Q2 was acceptable because it was balanced by the amount of damage that you received from using it. Because of that, it was not abused like laser jumping in Nexuiz seems to be. Perhaps the laser should take a little more damage from the player who is it.

Machine gun - This gun is frustrating because someone with very little skill can spray bullets at you and it's really difficult to avoid getting hit by them. This helps to ruin maps like Greatwall, IMO, where there are big open areas. Everyone in the base will use a machine gun and you get sprayed down with bullets within 3 seconds of entering the base. That is, unless you are a laser jumping god, which it appears only 0.002% of the Nexuiz community happens to be.

My suggestion - I'm not sure why this weapon is an instant hit weapon (don't remember the official term for that). A real gun doesn't hit instantly. There is a slight delay for the bullet to hit the target, even if it's in milliseconds. Giving the bullets a tad bit of delay would help. I'm not entirely sure what could help this weapon. The concept of it is that of a "hold down button and spray" weapon. Maybe look to real life to see why soldiers don't hold the trigger and spray bullets with a real machine gun. Maybe their accuracy gets worse the longer they hold the trigger. Maybe they run out of ammo too quickly. Maybe the gun overheats if the trigger is held too long. Those are some things to consider.

Mortar - Too powerful. Why do the stats show it lower than the other weapons? Because people don't know how to use it. That does not mean that it isn't powerful. I learned how powerful it was by playing and watching more experienced players (esteel, Dave) and watching demos of the better players (kojn). They all demonstrate how powerful it is. I've learned to use it more and more over the past couple of months. The only acceptable aspect of the mortar is the launch speed. In CTF, this weapon is very useful because it is one of the few weapons that can stop one of those speedy laser jumping freaks that move at 1000MPH away with the flag. The RL is way too slow for that. Other weapons are too slow or too weak to kill them at that distance.

My Suggestion Keep the speed as is, but slow down the reload a tad. Secondary fire is fine the way it is.

Another alternative - Limit the max-speed of travel for CTF players (as mentioned above). When they move that fast, it's difficult to stop them with anything but a Nex or a Mortar...or *maybe* the electro if you're lucky. If that happens, then the speed of the mortar projectile could slow down a tad and make it more balanced with the other weapons.

Rocket Launcher - This could use some slight adjustments .I would drop the power of this weapon slightly, and then maybe pick up the speed of the projectile slightly. Nothing huge...just small tweaks. Also, the right click detonation should be a little weaker than the primary fire. There has to be some trade-off for right click detonation...because it is really too powerful. The RL would be more powerful if people knew about the right click detonation feature (MANY people don't use it). Maybe if the speed of the rocket was faster, it would be harder to time the detonation?

Finally..

I think it would be great if there were some test version, or a test server, or a mod or something where we could test out differen't variations of the weapons. This would help to workout the details of weapons balancing. I have no idea what this would entail just yet, but all of these suggested changes are theoretical at this point. I don't know if my own suggestions suck or not, and it would be great if I could find out somehow.

[Mr.Carlyle]

Wow, I'm too lazy to quote so all this applies to Dokujisan's response about speed. I completely disagree and would probably stop playing the game if it got any slower. If anything the game could be a little faster (Spidflisk Mod). And you CAN stop those who laser jump...RBI is a good example. When you have players on the same skill they know how to stop them. Also CTF is a TEAM game. Coordinate your players so that they aren't all standing in front of the flag where someone can hop in grab it then hop out. There are always entries and exits to a base...cover those and you should have a chance of stopping the person from capturing.

Why take away the things that make Nexuiz unique? The laser is a great idea that no other game has implemented. Utilize it, don't punish those who spend X amount of time mastering the skill required to be good with it.

In addition to the weapon balancing and a server to test it on...Spidflisk. I can't say that enough. Spidflisk mod has already done this and has had these changes for some time. People always bitch about the movement....my god there are over 100 changes and all you can see is the movement?

I do agree that the RL, Mortar, Electro, and Nex need to be tweaked. Those are very powerful weapons with Huge radius damage (Nex exlcuded).

Also, anytime I'm on Spidflisk or in IRC and someone would like to play on Spidflisk without the friction set to 3, just ask me and I'd be happy to change it for you. I'm sure that most would appreciate the mod more with friction set to 5 (Nexuiz Standard), which is unfortunate that one cvar is causing this.

[TVR]

Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?

Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

Who hasn't tried learning how to use the Crylink before? The problem is it unintuitive.

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.

I don't like the idea of using calculations to rate weapons - LordHavoc always believes such numbers, but in actual gameplay it's different.

Example: If the Hagar's DPS was reduced to maybe... 10 over the RL's DPS, and the projectile speed was increased accordingly, it wouldn't be surprising to see more usage of the Hagar.

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.

It isn't that bad, and it works quite well in my hands.

It used to work in my hands, and probably much better in yours.

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.

Yes, maybe too many purposes. Not sure if secondary should really have no spread and thus be useful for long range.

I can't seem to stress that this is the only weapon capable of stopping Xeno-style escapes, due to it's hitscan bullets, fast refire, and low spead.

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.

From the numbers I would say it is overpowered, but why is it below RL/Nex/Hagar/MG in the stats then?

It's naturally unintuitive, which was implied in the arc factor; but at close range, the arc is neligable.

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].

Well, I learned how to use both modes... it is in fact possible.

Of course it is possible, we have all tried at least once; however the projectiles are too slow, do such little damage, and have a high refire time, that it is unimaginably difficult to use.

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire needs a massive revamp.

Just... what?

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.

I don't consider it that strong from my experience. Maybe because of the high risk of self damage...

Which now happens to be reduced also due to semi-Newtonian physics causing the rocket to impact before you can reach the space.

[divVerent]

Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

Averaged across the maps. On some maps, one weapon rules, on some, the other does. But that's obvious, each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages. If that weren't the case, why would you then have more than one weapon?

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

Who told you that? And if it were, it would be quite overpowered, as it uses no ammo.

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

You consider it a bug that the Nex now is useless at short range? Of course that's a feature - look at other games. Many games don't even show a crosshair on a sniper rifle when you haven't zoomed in, and without doubt, the Nex is the equivalent to a sniper rifle.

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

Of course, you don't seem to understand. Each weapon is supposed to have a different purpose, but they are supposed to be balanced on average. Laser and shotgun, being the starting weapons, are exceptions, so freshly spawned players are not too strong immediately. A typical problem in CTF is that you need to kill the same defender multiple times because he always respawns in front of your nose. To make this problem not that big, the shotgun and laser can't be too strong.

[TVR]

Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

Averaged across the maps. On some maps, one weapon rules, on some, the other does. But that's obvious, each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages. If that weren't the case, why would you then have more than one weapon?

The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

Who told you that? And if it were, it would be quite overpowered, as it uses no ammo.

..? If the laser weapon were a combat weapon, you could always factor the ammo usage into the balancing.

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

You consider it a bug that the Nex now is useless at short range? Of course that's a feature - look at other games. Many games don't even show a crosshair on a sniper rifle when you haven't zoomed in, and without doubt, the Nex is the equivalent to a sniper rifle.

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

Of course, you don't seem to understand. Each weapon is supposed to have a different purpose, but they are supposed to be balanced on average. Laser and shotgun, being the starting weapons, are exceptions, so freshly spawned players are not too strong immediately. A typical problem in CTF is that you need to kill the same defender multiple times because he always respawns in front of your nose. To make this problem not that big, the shotgun and laser can't be too strong.

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

[divVerent]

The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

As I said - on average.

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

Yes, I think this should be fixed - just, how?

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

That's what we both experience when playing... however, the stats tell you otherwise:

ctf_Darkzonectf, kh_Darkzonectf - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
ctf_eggandbacon - Hagar on place 2 with only the MG in front of it
ctf_hourglass - Hagar and Mortar tied on place 1
ctf_tznex01 - Hagar owns
ctf_vitamea - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
kh_70mm13_03 - Hagar owns
kh_darkcity - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc1 - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc2 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_shdwdm1 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_silvercity - Hagar owns
kh_stormkeep - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_wacka-wacka - Hagar owns
On average on Key Hunt (which basically includes every large DM map): Hagar and RL tied on place 1

These stats are calculated in an Elo-like fashion - when A kills B and A holds weapon a and B holds weapon b, it counts as a win of a against b, and what it does is estimating scores sa, sb so if A holds a and B holds b, A will win against B with a probability of sa-sb + 50%.

So apparently there are quite some players who CAN use the Hagar - but I can't.

[tZork]

hagar ideas: smaller explotions (just the visuals). missile trails. its to hard to se where you are hitting in a burst with the large boomys and its sometimes hard to see where you are shooting when trying to use it over range/midair. tails would help with both.

once/if it becomes a gun avarage joe can use it will proly need to be castrated tho. its got some big harry ones when used right.

[Psychcf]

I think something that would make the crosshair more visible when the haggar is out may aid in it's usability.

[esteel]

Well you can try an other crosshair color or use CH 9/10 which have black + chooseable color.

[TVR]

The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

As I said - on average.

I see.

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

Yes, I think this should be fixed - just, how?

Think about a fast firing version, with less damage, ~120 with ~1 second refire; the weapon switching bug could could be removed in the same fashion of how it was implemented in the last few revisions.

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

That's what we both experience when playing... however, the stats tell you otherwise:

ctf_Darkzonectf, kh_Darkzonectf - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
ctf_eggandbacon - Hagar on place 2 with only the MG in front of it
ctf_hourglass - Hagar and Mortar tied on place 1
ctf_tznex01 - Hagar owns
ctf_vitamea - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
kh_70mm13_03 - Hagar owns
kh_darkcity - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc1 - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc2 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_shdwdm1 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_silvercity - Hagar owns
kh_stormkeep - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_wacka-wacka - Hagar owns
On average on Key Hunt (which basically includes every large DM map): Hagar and RL tied on place 1

These stats are calculated in an Elo-like fashion - when A kills B and A holds weapon a and B holds weapon b, it counts as a win of a against b, and what it does is estimating scores sa, sb so if A holds a and B holds b, A will win against B with a probability of sa-sb + 50%.

So apparently there are quite some players who CAN use the Hagar - but I can't.

OK, so the Hagar actually follows the auto-weapon switch tier, then maybe it could be made a bit easier to use in game modes deferring from Keyhunt?