Discussing the 1on1 gameplay

[tChr]

This is from a discussion between Luna, phreak_ and me on IRC. I think it has general interest, so I paste it here. (the less interesting parts removed

(no bashing of kojak intended, or ment harmful )

<Luna> Well, Nexuiz doesn't allow me to do that atm. =)
<Luna> It's just a bunch of fights between me with 0 armour and 150ish health against k0jak with 200+ health and a couple of armours that he won't let me have.
<[NSB]tChr> Luna: I agree with you thre.. a relly good player can have too much control of a map.
<[NSB]tChr> especially a smaller one
<Luna> Yeah.. 05 is pretty sick.
<phreak__> i mean fuck it, map control is part of this game
<phreak__> and kojak is a very good player
<[NSB]tChr> yes.. map control is a good thing, but the underdog shold at least have a chance to break the dominant players control
<phreak__> exactly
<phreak__> kojak is not the problem here
<Luna> I think controling the map by camping the good areas and refusing the opponent free access to get stuff is really ok.
<[NSB]tChr> noone claimed kojak is a problem.. the claim was that some maps and some of the game setup allows for too much dominance.
<Luna> That kind of control can be broken by a couple of lucky spawns and stuff.
<phreak__> agree with both of u
<Luna> But the kind of control kojak uses is to simply run around the map and pick up the armours as they spawn. If I happen to be in the way I just die because he's got more life than me.
<Luna> He's playing Nexuiz the way it's supposed to be played, and I'm not.
<[NSB]tChr> I dont think thats the intentional way "the game shold be played" Like all other projects, this kind of stuff is discoevered after testing enough
<Luna> Generally you should have hurt your opponent badly enough that he should be the one cursing you spawning next to him, not the other way around phreak__.
<[NSB]tChr> Is Nexuiz intended as a 1on1 at all? The tactic would not work with many players
<Luna> It would work really well in any x on x game.
<[NSB]tChr> but FFA?
<[NSB]tChr> 8 player all agains all... someone is bound to pick up the stuff before you get there
<[NSB]tChr> freeforall
<Luna> No, you can't win in FFA by simply running from armour to armour.
<[NSB]tChr> and I think most of the games tactics and layout (in gameplay) had FFA in mind.. now is the time to adapt changes to make it a better XonX game
<phreak__> it's not like something just changed for the worse
<phreak__> gameplay has been the same since day one-ish
<Luna> Yes, it has. But untill I played k0jak yesterday I never saw the flaws.
<Luna> Or well, I saw plenty, but not this one.
<Luna> I consider it a flaw, but it's probably designed that way for a reason.
<[NSB]tChr> I think it was just designed that way because it seemed a good way to do it
<Luna> k0jak plays Nexuiz, and everyone else I've played doesn't.
<phreak__> thats a question only devs could answer
<phreak__> lol luna
<phreak__> what do others play
<Luna> Nexuiz without item timing and hit and run attacks.
<phreak__> that's not nexuiz
<[NSB]tChr> thats kojak-style
<phreak__> that's kojaks way of playing
<phreak__> exactly
<[NSB]tChr> but Luna has a point.. If this is the ultimate way to play nex, wich it seems to be, then eventually everyone would go there.
<phreak__> i'm one of thise people with the shotgun if nothing else is available
<Luna> By definition if you win by alot over someone you're doing something right and the opponent is doing something wrong.
<phreak__> i dont see my self any less a nex player then anyone else
<phreak__> not necesserily
<Luna> Example?
<phreak__> it could also mean that you're exploiting it's flaws
<phreak__> to me, the frag count means nothing
<phreak__> i really could give two shits about it
<[NSB]tChr> flaws that has layed dorment, and needs to be fixed
<phreak__> i love playing against tChr
<phreak__> it's fucking fun
<Luna> High level play is all about exploiting flaws.
<phreak__> win or lose
<phreak__> if someone wants to make a doctorate about nex playing...fuck them
<phreak__> i assure you, they are having a lot less fun then me

[k0jak]

Interesting topic/discussion


but it does seem towards the end, that you see my style as a 'flaw' in the game.

to me it isn't, i dont' always 'time' the armours exactly, its just coming into the room, i know its going to be any second, due to a path i take,

this is most common on nexdmextra1, this is how i can dominate, i assure you if you figure out how to stop me, or so i will just choose another route in, this is part of 1on1 (In my eyes), 1on1 is about control, you should wait, and try to surprise the opponent if you can't get into the game, or stay away from them, and spam or something, anything that puts them into your game, you dont have to listen to me, but this is just from experience.


the other maps aren't too bad on extra2, believe it or not i dont time the items all of the time...rarely, i just know when they are going to spawn from, cycle timing (order of things reappearing, and its something ive picked up on in this game). You do have to remember a lot of these maps arent JUST designed for 1on1, hence the amounts of armours on some maps, although i dont think they are overdone either.


Please post your comments anyway

[k0jak]

By the way, i do enjoy high-level play in this game.

It isn't about exploiting flaws, and i'd be annoyed, that the gameplay was changed so much, just because people can't adapt to a different gamestyle or one persons...that is WRONG in my oppinion.


but i guess it's up to the majority, i try to explain that 1on1 is a different style of play, look at a lot of good games, ut2004/ Q3 / Q4 / QW / all of it in 1on1, a lot of it involves around item collection.

i do agree with some things, that some of the maps are 'too, dominant'

dm01 being the worst.

[hurzel 2]

Quote kojak:

"1on1 is about control, you should wait, and try to surprise the opponent if you can't get into the game, or stay away from them, and spam or something, anything that puts them into your game, ..."

Full ack!

In a ladder there must always be someone leading. And it'll be some great dm fights 'til someone is able to replace Kojak there ...

I'm open to changes and I think nexuiz has been evolving nicely.. of course it can be frustrating for some to get owned, but i#m not sure the game itself is at fault. It isn't a given that someone dominates.. he does something for it ... if i want a game where the only important thing is superior aim then i play minstagib.. but in ladder dm so much more is important and makes the game more challenging. As Luna is one of the top players i of course think that he may have a point that either powering up could be modified or that the game is impossible to win against an able player with a lucky beginning...(how should i know.. i'll never win against the top 5 but I do hope Luna sees another way of getting this discussion going about maybe needed reforms without giving up this game he's been enjoying for so long til getting owned himself.

my 2 cents
the chicken

[Urmel]

I just agrea whtih hurzel's post spraying a loud gaggaaaaaw

I'm always sad about ppl who immediately throw the towel when they recognize that they won't manage to be #1. This IMO is a main thang about life itsself, You won't get along if You ain't got this skill in RL (no, not the rocket launcher!).

Still Luna is very fair, he never offended anybody. I think he wants to quit anyway by having found a new game. This is very sad, we're all gonna miss him, but I tell Ya he's gonna come back anyway, other games might have better gameplay issues, bot none have that splendid community

[tChr]

Please leve at that with the personal discussion.

Whats important here is weither we need to make small changes to the gameplay to make it a bit easier for the underdog to break the better players streaks. Any ideas?

What about introducinfg the possibility for as server switch that makes the powerps spawn somewhat randomly? like standard spawntime +-30 seconds iof the switch is enabled.

What about making new maps? I think nexd18 is a map where movement can make up a lot for playing a better aimer and the opposite. thats the only real good 1on1map imho.

[kern]

Why do those ppl enter a ladder competition if they arent prepared to lose heavily and remain gracious in defeat, as well as take the win if they can.

ive been thrashed like this before (non ladder 1v1) against Quizmo . All credit to him. No excuses, he wiped the floor with me.
the scoring effect is cumulative tho. Fully stacked against lazer / std health and armor. not a fun day out. One sided scoring should be expected.

As long as both players arent using unfair cheats, wallhacks, modified skins etc.

How far do you carry "fair" tho?
next will it be "of course he won , he had a better G/card / faster connection / better PC / better eyesight / the wrong colour skin .... blah blah blah

it seems 1 v 1 is about map domination. right or wrong as soon as a player establishes himself with armor+health and weapons, its hard to get back on an even keel for the one trying to then gain weapons against a fully stacked opponent.

with FFA theres always someone else being killed, and an easier chance to stack up and recoup.


just an idea:
Perhaps what some are looking for is a Duel type match where the playing field is levelled after each kill.

Maybe use "first to 15 points" format or what, and after each kill respawn both players at set locations. Then up to the individual how and when he aqcuires his weapons/armor/health before engaging the opponent.

Would it be easier too if the match report was left out? let the demo's do the talking, then theres no complaints to deal with.

no offence or disrespect intended but,
i have a feeling that the players winning now will also be winning then, and that some ungracious losers will still be crying "unfair".

Excellence doesnt come of luck. it comes of skill, dedication and practice.

gl & hf

[tChr]

I think the discussion really should go in the direction of weither the current gameplay does not allow for more than one playing style. Thats my real concern.

[k0jak]

It's up to you to choose your playing style, mines based on getting armour a lot of the time, and trying to stay alive,


i think that dm18, and extra2 are good 1on1 maps..dm03 is a good map, even if i am not very good on it at the moment. I admit there needs to be more 1on1 purpose made maps.

random armour spawn timings, is bad and wrong imo, since your then taking away how i play the game, just because a good player got beaten, well in my eyes anyway.

i mean, The way luna said it before, he thought the game was about killing someone, then whoever wins takes a few powerups and goes onto there opponent...arent i just doing this in reverse, taking some powerups then going onto the opponent?

[tChr]

Dont misunderstand me.. I'm not saying the gameplay needs adjusting. I'm asking wiether it does