Discussing weapons

[tChr]

Wouldn't it be fun to have the Crylink as a numbing/freezing weapon so the victim moves slowlier and slowlier the more You hitt him?

/me thinks to have played a gaem ys ago where such a weapon existed..

Duke3D had the freezethower... But I dont agree with you. I dont think weapons should affect movement in a game as fast-paced as this.

About the crylink though. In its placement in the weapons loop and in some of the maps suggest that this was ment to be a real powerful weapon.

[divVerent]

About the crylink though. In its placement in the weapons loop and in some of the maps suggest that this was ment to be a real powerful weapon.

Yes, I think the Crylink should be made a BIT (20% to 40% perhaps) more powerful for longer distances. Especially the primary fire seems quite useless to me, the secondary one is not THAT bad.

Here some stats, especially at the bottom: http://mensa.ath.cx/~polzer/temp/logtest.html - however, I still think the Crylink is overrated and the Mortar underrated here. Probably it needs some more playing until the values actually make sense - and maybe not with the bots.

[tZork]

crylink can be a rather effective slugther machine when on strength. specialy the secondray.

the 1.5 changes does makes the crylink way more usefull BUT its still just a plasma version of teh shotgun with a flat barrel for secondary. rather boring.

[kern]

full ack tchr's OP and Toets.

Rock, paper, scissors, dynamite is far more fun than rock, rock, rock, rock surely.

weapon usefulnes/annoyance value, as the other hot topic - gameplay & domination, is map related, skill related and of course tactical too.

How about a bit of praise for each weapon and an insight into why u like it? instead of whinging about ones u cant use well, or are pissed with cos u always seem to get killed by it, or in general dont favour using.

my favourite : Lazer
Why give bad press to the lazer as Cheap on space maps?
its just as annoying on others. and as any weapon, infuriating in the hands of an opponent that makes best use of it.

I've been called from a "cheat" to a "fscking grasshopper" for using it. Some have even left space maps if i use it as a main kill weapon, whereas they are quite happy to engage me with rockets (versus my lazer) on others.

Its great for getting up places where others have to use jump-pads, if there even are any. In most maps its great for getting along between weapons and shaking off "chasers" by bouncing away or wall climbing.

Its great to distance yourself if your too close, and great to close range if your too far away.

On space maps its the ideal foil to those who camp the Nex waiting for ppl to use a jump pad, as u can get up to the platforms by lazerjumping. It needs as much skill aiming, if not more, than the Nex as its not instantaneous.

Its mainly overlooked by new players who see the "winning weapon" as the RL. Many newcomers even have to ask which weapon im using to jump with.

Finally, compare responses to an infuriating kill / getaway / game / player:
"nice move" "ns" "gg" "well played" against "fscking cheat0r" "bg" "this map sux" "unfair tactics"
work out who's likely to shout which one and why.

gl & hf

[Wazat]

About the crylink though. In its placement in the weapons loop and in some of the maps suggest that this was ment to be a real powerful weapon.

Yes, it was meant to be. However, because of the way it functions, you have to be close and accurate to get any kind of benefit from it. And it's not trace-hit like the shotgun, so you have to lead your aim ever-so-slightly despite any lag from the imperfect connection (although its speed has gotten really high lately, so that's not so much an issue now). As said earlier, it's basically a non-tracehit version of the shotgun with a different alt-fire and perhaps more damage potential.

I'm surprised they shrank the spread. I might want to widen its spread slightly, slow the bullet speed, make it fire only 4 bullets, give the bullets a notable damage radius, and up the damage-per-bullet considerably. That would definitely modify how it's used.

I really recommend everyone hop in the menu, change a bunch of crylink values, and play together to try them out. Share the configs you think do the crylink justice.


Here are a couple suggestions to give ideas:
Kinda weak:
set "g_balance_crylink_damage" "25"
set "g_balance_crylink_edgedamage" "18"
set "g_balance_crylink_force" "55"
set "g_balance_crylink_radius" "75"
set "g_balance_crylink_speed" "3500"
set "g_balance_crylink_spread" "0.100000"
set "g_balance_crylink_refire" "0.700000"
set "g_balance_crylink_shots" "4"
Stronger:
set "g_balance_crylink_damage" "35"
set "g_balance_crylink_edgedamage" "25"
set "g_balance_crylink_force" "55"
set "g_balance_crylink_radius" "125"
set "g_balance_crylink_speed" "4000"
set "g_balance_crylink_spread" "0.120000"
set "g_balance_crylink_refire" "0.600000"
set "g_balance_crylink_shots" "4"

I really like the second config, though I'd want to play with a human player first to see how it feels on the recieving end. Bots don't really use the weapon properly.


Lag issues prevent us from making the bullets bounce like a flak cannon, and nex players move too fast for such a weapon to be truely effective anyway. So, we end up with a gun that rarely deals its potential in damage as a high spread, and rarely hits as low spread. If you up the damage per bullet, it becomes insane at point-blank.
I feel sorry for the dev team trying to fine-tune this baby. It has so much potential and you can tell they've put a lot of work into the weapon, but it's just not living up the name they wanted for it.

Oh, and kern, I don't mean to totally rip on the crylink. It's a cool weapon, but it's really difficult to use and I really prefer others. Nexuiz is a living game that will continually change as time passes. I see the Crylink as one of those weapons that will definitely change. It's beautiful, but I think it needs a little more love before it can reach its potential.

An alt-fire machinegun (firing the bullets rapid-fire instead of as a cluster) or lightning gun would be cool, IMO.

[kozak6]

crylink can be a rather effective slugther machine when on strength. specialy the secondray.

Of course, the laser and the shotgun also happen to be effective slaughter machines when on strength.

Although some weapons are better than others, at least all of them seem to have a use or purpose. The crylink doesn't really seem to fit. It's usually a scarce weapon, often simply missing or tucked away in basements under trap doors, and often, it seems like you would be better off just sticking with the plain old shotgun instead.

Perhaps something closer to a nailgun would be interesting. I always thought it would be cool if it were like a nailgun that fired 3 round blasts.

Or maybe something with ricocheting projeciles?

[Wazat]

Of course, the laser and the shotgun also happen to be effective slaughter machines when on strength.

Although some weapons are better than others, at least all of them seem to have a use or purpose. The crylink doesn't really seem to fit. It's usually a scarce weapon, often simply missing or tucked away in basements under trap doors, and often, it seems like you would be better off just sticking with the plain old shotgun instead.

Perhaps something closer to a nailgun would be interesting. I always thought it would be cool if it were like a nailgun that fired 3 round blasts.

Or maybe something with ricocheting projeciles?

Me too. I really want to make a machinegun with bullets that deal moderate damage in a large blast radius and bounce once off of whatever surface they hit. I've made the rapid-fire 3 bullet version, but would need to modify code to do bouncing (not in the mood atm).

However, I *can* show you the 3-bullet rapid fire. It's surprisingly nice!

set "g_balance_crylink_damage" "25"
set "g_balance_crylink_edgedamage" "20"
set "g_balance_crylink_force" "50"
set "g_balance_crylink_radius" "65"
set "g_balance_crylink_speed" "3500"
set "g_balance_crylink_spread" "0.100000"
set "g_balance_crylink_refire" "0.250000"
set "g_balance_crylink_shots" "3"

Try fiddling with the spread and damage till you like it. I'd like to see that with a different alt-fire in Nexuiz someday.

[tChr]

DiVerent:
That logging thing looks awfully like something I've got in my head. Is this being serioulsy worked on? If so it way cool.

Kern:

I hate to have to repeat this again but the reason for the laser being annoying on space maps is that it ruins game play. The simple reason for this is that it reduces the way the maps can be played to just using laser.

Of cource the nex will rule the laser any time, but you SPAWN WITH THE LASER, and the space mapss are rather small. You dont have any time to get anyting else when 7 shitheads run around kicking eah other of with the laser at all times Most of the time you cant even start moving before starting to get thrown around. That way there is no way or time to get anopther weapon, and the map play is rediced to this being the only possible way to play QED. On space maps its easier to kill with the laser than with many other weapons, and you should not spawn with the most powerful weapon. Its not as annoying on other maps because you have to hit people more than one time with it, wich buy the time you'll be dead, forcing you to fight for real.

Your argumants would make sense if the laser was a pick-up.

On 1on1 mages the laser isnt that annpying bacuase its quite possible to counter it. At least much easier than when lots of people are using it.

[Toets]

The laser is just soooooo cool on spacemaps! But I guess that's a personal preference

Anyway, there is only one spacemap where you can realy take advantage of the laser. The other one is most definately dominated by the Nex on the top platform. So are we whining about one map here? There are other maps that instantly turn into RL arena kind of fights. Should we ban those maps too?
And the laser is very easy to dodge on that space map, because it takes some skill for one to hit you with it. If you can dodge the laser, you can own them with any kind of weapon on there!
But like I said, it's a personal preference wether you like laser fights on space maps or not. Personally I think it's cool that some maps give the possibility for another kind of gameplay. This keeps the game variated.

Concerning the crylink... Overall I too think it's kind of weak. Therefor I only use it as a last defense weapon to support me when running away. Or I use it for the ammo. But there is one map where the crylink just rules all other weapons. I can't think of the name right now, but it's a map with a central (small) area with a mortar in the corner. Most of the time, that place is crowded and you can easily hit most of the players in there simultaniously from one of the "entrances" to the central area.

So that's why I believe every weapon has its usefullness on certain maps. And I don't mind finetuning a weapon but that involves the risk that weapons become equal in usefullness and power.

[tChr]

Anyway, there is only one spacemap where you can realy take advantage of the laser. The other one is most definately dominated by the Nex on the top platform. So are we whining about one map here? There are other maps that instantly turn into RL arena kind of fights. Should we ban those maps too?

Again. you spawn with the laser. Make the laser a pickup on these maps and the matter would be completely different.

I would suggest that you start with the MG on evil space and put a laser for pickup wthere the MG is. That would make it cool

And the laser is very easy to dodge on that space map, because it takes some skill for one to hit you with it. If you can dodge the laser, you can own them with any kind of weapon on there!

No. The laser is shit easy to use for this on evil space. No_skill_whoatsoever_is_needed.

But like I said, it's a personal preference wether you like laser fights on space maps or not.

This I agree with. and this only proves my point. If you _dont_ like laser-figthing you afre fukd, cause its the only way to play when 7 other people are using the laser on these maps, you have no chance in hell to get to anopther weapon before you are pished off, and awiching to laser while you wait only accelerate the use of the laser from the other players.

Concerning the crylink... Overall I too think it's kind of weak. Therefor I only use it as a last defense weapon to support me when running away. Or I use it for the ammo. But there is one map where the crylink just rules all other weapons. I can't think of the name right now, but it's a map with a central (small) area with a mortar in the corner. Most of the time, that place is crowded and you can easily hit most of the players in there simultaniously from one of the "entrances" to the central area.

That sounds like nexdm01, and you are right.. for crowded games this is correct, but for games with few players the mortar totally rules this map.