CTF

[ai]

Well, frags just can't be there, it's not CTF if frags give points to the team. However, frags will still show as a statistic for players, If frags won't come true for the mode (which I desperately don't want).

[[-z-]]

wtf, another thread?

[TVR]

... Or spawn killing which is usual in wave respawn games. ...

I understand your current position is a result of your misinterpretations of the previous post, however it does not matter whether you understand, only if divVerent does.

DivVerent was the one who implemented wave respawn, for which was done because he knew, while any sort of delayed respawn would increase the penalty of being fragged, respawn in waves increased the resistance of respawners by overwhelming spawnfraggers.

I KNOW divVerent will understand that post, perfectly.

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... Your suggestion makes running after a flag carrier useless cause you can't return the flag ... you touch the flag, reset timeout, you're nexed, another player touches, resets timeout, and so on and so on. ...

Just because one can't return the flag doesn't mean one should allow the the enemy flag carrier to escape with the flag.

Of course, I only mentioned no manual flag returns, but I never mentioned any systems to prevent such GPMs [GamePlay Mechanics] from forming [i.e. Flag returns in 30 seconds, 1 second is added to the timer every 2 or so seconds someone holds the flag], or drew any connection of periods between wave respawns allowing a window of opportunity.

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All current CTF maps are linear, are and defended by preventing the opposing team from scoring by holding the opposing flag.

Cause you play only BROKEN maps then (like mojo),

I've already explained why MojoCTF is the only balanced map with the current GPMs of the success ratio between the attacker and defender being weighted onto the attacker.

Which means this is a issue of comprehension on YOUR end.

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Grabbing the flag before your opponent is usual for fragfest maps (succersocks, eggandbacon) but not real ctf maps, who should have curves to prevent speedcaps, several ways from base to base and different fighting areas (tunnels, arena, air to air combat places) and of course be symmetric. Space maps usually do not work in nexuiz, cause they are made too small in comparison to player speed.

If you define 'real' CTF maps as ones that follow Quake or UT CTF map designs, then you are just further demonstrating your ignorance for why Quake or UT CTF map designs rely on GamePlay Mechanics [GPMs] that bias the attacker to defender success ratio to the side of the defender [if you happen to read this, it means the complete opposite of current Nexuiz GPMs.]

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projectiles reach pursuer quicker than vice-versa

This is almost how it is in the real life except backward velocity is not added to the shot released by the pursued

You don't understand how Newtonian motion works [or else you wouldn't need to comment on that advantage], although DivVerent does, I'll try to sum it up in a manner you may understand better.

Fire a bullet from a pistol travelling forward at 100 KPH, propellant adds an additional 100 KPH to the relative speed of the bullet, bullet flies out at an absolute speed of 200 KPH.

Fire a bullet from a pistol travelling forward at -100 KPH [travelling backward], propellent adds 100 KPH to the relative speed of the bullet, bullet flies out at an absolute speed of 0 KPH on the axis it was fired.

I haven't factored in the gravitational constant, but no matter how fast the bullet is travelling on horizontal dimensions, be it 0 or 200 KPH, it still falls vertically at the acceleration of the gravitational constant.

Nexuiz' semi-Newtonian physics adds player speed to projectiles on the forward axis [side velocity is discarded], but only subtracts speed from a backward moving to a point, therefore the projectile will never stop or travel backwards, because most projectiles aren't affected by gravity, so it wouldn't make sense to some.

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weapon fire by pursuer accelerates flag carrier

Crylink deaccelerates. Nobody wants to be accelerated by nex shot.

Acceleration is acceleration, at least being accelerated by a pursuer Nex shot has benefits, while deceleration by a flag carrier Nex shot has none.

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Trying to defend the base is less rewarding than attempting to retrieve the flag, as once the flag is returned, as long as the flag carrier has any lead on the opposing team respawn point, the flag carrier will be able to score before the opposing team can retake the flag due to the maintained lead from constant velocity.

What? He will still need to cross returning defenders line. You need one nex shot to kill his advance.

If the flag carrier has any lead on the enemy, lead being defined as lower time to reach base [which is constant even on differing routes], the flag carrier will score.

The flag carrier does not HAVE to remain in enemy territory, the flag carrier's base as a safe spot, for example.

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]Therefore, handicapping the flag carrier's acceleration is the simplest, and most effective method of balancing CTF across all maps with the exception of MojoCTF, the only existing balanced map [The opposing team is ALREADY able to retake the flag before the flag carrier can score] relying on player propulsion.

quake didn't handicap anyone.

IMO, your suggestion will increase amount of 0-0 games.

Nexuiz does not have the same GPMs as Quake, already proved to an logically incontestable threshold.

0-0 Captures, possibly if everyone is equal is every possible manner, such as reflexes, perfect play, latency, FPS, etc.

But unless any randomness is involved, completely equal players will achieve completely equal results in any game mode.

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Everyone using logic should be able to understand the original post, and not require another direct address.

The original post has also reached the logically incontestable threshold, if anyone else willingly decides to contest the original post further, that someone is not using logic and needs to be ignored.

[Alien]

... Or spawn killing which is usual in wave respawn games. .

I understand your current position is a result of your misinterpretations of the previous post, however it does not matter whether you understand, only if divVerent does.

DivVerent was the one who implemented wave respawn, for which was done because he knew, while any sort of delayed respawn would increase the penalty of being fragged, respawn in waves increased the resistance of respawners by overwhelming spawnfraggers.

I KNOW divVerent will understand that post, perfectly.

And yet, it was removed...

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... Your suggestion makes running after a flag carrier useless cause you can't return the flag ... you touch the flag, reset timeout, you're nexed, another player touches, resets timeout, and so on and so on. ...

Just because one can't return the flag doesn't mean one should allow the the enemy flag carrier to escape with the flag.

Of course, I only mentioned no manual flag returns, but I never mentioned any systems to prevent such GPMs [GamePlay Mechanics] from forming [i.e. Flag returns in 30 seconds, 1 second is added to the timer every 2 or so seconds someone holds the flag], or drew any connection of periods between wave respawns allowing a window of opportunity.

This is another hidden thing, which makes game random, cause you can't predict exact time at which flag will return.

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All current CTF maps are linear, are and defended by preventing the opposing team from scoring by holding the opposing flag.

Cause you play only BROKEN maps then (like mojo),

I've already explained why MojoCTF is the only balanced map with the current GPMs of the success ratio between the attacker and defender being weighted onto the attacker.

Which means this is a issue of comprehension on YOUR end.

It's probably your problem that you're too stubborn and can't agree with most people opinion, what is balanced map. Nexuiz GPM isn't based on getting the flag before your opponent caps (and shouldn't). Those maps who do that are called fragfests, because distance is too short and you can kill each other just after respawn. Not seeing enemy base at spawn time is essential thing in any good map design.

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Grabbing the flag before your opponent is usual for fragfest maps (succersocks, eggandbacon) but not real ctf maps, who should have curves to prevent speedcaps, several ways from base to base and different fighting areas (tunnels, arena, air to air combat places) and of course be symmetric. Space maps usually do not work in nexuiz, cause they are made too small in comparison to player speed.

If you define 'real' CTF maps as ones that follow Quake or UT CTF map designs, then you are just further demonstrating your ignorance for why Quake or UT CTF map designs rely on GamePlay Mechanics [GPMs] that bias the attacker to defender success ratio to the side of the defender [if you happen to read this, it means the complete opposite of current Nexuiz GPMs.]

What? Quake didn't bias anything, UT did a bit (no teleport for fc). Whatever you wrote here, doesn't make sense cause in Quake all players had equal opportunities (does not matter fc, or not). And, really, quake had more offense than defense.

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projectiles reach pursuer quicker than vice-versa

This is almost how it is in the real life except backward velocity is not added to the shot released by the pursued

You don't understand how Newtonian motion works [or else you wouldn't need to comment on that advantage], although DivVerent does, I'll try to sum it up in a manner you may understand better.

Fire a bullet from a pistol travelling forward at 100 KPH, propellant adds an additional 100 KPH to the relative speed of the bullet, bullet flies out at an absolute speed of 200 KPH.

Fire a bullet from a pistol travelling forward at -100 KPH [travelling backward], propellent adds 100 KPH to the relative speed of the bullet, bullet flies out at an absolute speed of 0 KPH on the axis it was fired.

I haven't factored in the gravitational constant, but no matter how fast the bullet is travelling on horizontal dimensions, be it 0 or 200 KPH, it still falls vertically at the acceleration of the gravitational constant.

Nexuiz' semi-Newtonian physics adds player speed to projectiles on the forward axis [side velocity is discarded], but only subtracts speed from a backward moving to a point, therefore the projectile will never stop or travel backwards, because most projectiles aren't affected by gravity, so it wouldn't make sense to some.

So? What's wrong in what I said? You just explained Newtonian physics and what's your point? That I don't understand Newtonian physics?

Code: Select all

-> <-; where -> is a pursuer, <- defender's rocket; will always be faster (unless defenders rocket will go backwards) than ->+->  ->; where ->+-> are pursuer and his rocket, -> pursued.

It's the law both in Newtonian physics and Nexuiz pseudo one. Nexuiz is not combat simulator, that's why shot does not go down or become slower of air friction, etc, etc... Although I would like self powered rockets which would accelerate in time. It does not take backwards nor strafe speed into account at all.

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weapon fire by pursuer accelerates flag carrier

Crylink deaccelerates. Nobody wants to be accelerated by nex shot.

Acceleration is acceleration, at least being accelerated by a pursuer Nex shot has benefits, while deceleration by a flag carrier Nex shot has none.

Being accelerated by nex shot has almost no benefits, cause most often you kill yourself after that trying to laser jump.

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Trying to defend the base is less rewarding than attempting to retrieve the flag, as once the flag is returned, as long as the flag carrier has any lead on the opposing team respawn point, the flag carrier will be able to score before the opposing team can retake the flag due to the maintained lead from constant velocity.

What? He will still need to cross returning defenders line. You need one nex shot to kill his advance.

If the flag carrier has any lead on the enemy, lead being defined as lower time to reach base [which is constant even on differing routes], the flag carrier will score.

The flag carrier does not HAVE to remain in enemy territory, the flag carrier's base as a safe spot, for example.

Still I don't understand how does it cross defense line. Does it magically teleport or what?

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]Therefore, handicapping the flag carrier's acceleration is the simplest, and most effective method of balancing CTF across all maps with the exception of MojoCTF, the only existing balanced map [The opposing team is ALREADY able to retake the flag before the flag carrier can score] relying on player propulsion.

quake didn't handicap anyone.

IMO, your suggestion will increase amount of 0-0 games.

Nexuiz does not have the same GPMs as Quake, already proved to an logically incontestable threshold.

0-0 Captures, possibly if everyone is equal is every possible manner, such as reflexes, perfect play, latency, FPS, etc.

But unless any randomness is involved, completely equal players will achieve completely equal results in any game mode.

Woo... Smells like arrogance. Logically incontestable? Seems like you have TOO MUCH confidence. Randomness has no place in competitive play. You don't need equal teams to get 0-0 scores. Some maps are just easier to defend than attack and even weaker team, which would score nothing in open map can take victory. Nexuiz does not have same GPM as quake, yet the quake3 is the most relative game to nexuiz than any others. You could achieve very high speeds in quake3 too.

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Everyone using logic should be able to understand the original post, and not require another direct address.

The original post has also reached the logically incontestable threshold, if anyone else willingly decides to contest the original post further, that someone is not using logic and needs to be ignored.

Scnr: sounded like spoken by another GOD of NEXUIZ. Logically incontestable threshold is not argument, sorry for disappointing you. Take time to provide arguments, which are really based on smth and not on your defined thresholds, which can't be proved anyway. And even if we would try to do, you can always respond - it's incontestable. So, imo, such arguments should not be taken seriously at all.


EDIT:
And btw, the most balanced map (teamplay wise) is SUBSEATRACK which can be thought as antithesis of mojoctf. I'm not gonna to explain why subseatrack is balanced, unless you'll insist on that. No speed removal is required for this map and only caps would work very well here. That's why I would vote for this. But because we have ONLY ONE map of such type, I'll probably should vote differently.

[divVerent]

And yet, [respawn waves] was removed...

Of course. because most players hated it. People can't stand waiting for 5 seconds nowadays.

[jlue2051]

'elo >_<,
okay guyz diz idea with points only. hmm... i really dont care too much about that. but defense doesnt get points and thats why i dislike that.

now teh 70% selfpush thingy:
i really HATE it!
A defender needs to do one rocket jump to be directly behind the flag carrier that already has no health cause of jumping.

and if you think that will bring TEAMPLAY on attack, you really should play ffa some more times. regular people dont even know that they've got teambinds on numpad.

esteel always gives his link to the basics data, but noone seems to use it. there we go: they don't even want teamplay.

and people cant get away from those super-aimers like Kronos, GreEn', bundy and many more. I even couldn't with 100%. but 'elo? 70%? kidding?

i voted for the point "Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.4.2)".

[ai]

Well, we're once again at the place where we have to ask ourselves. Taking the flag, is it supposed to be 'jump in, jump out'? How about defending yourself when you have the flag. It's not just all about jump in, jump out. That, I bet was never the intent with the CTF mode. You can't defend yourself when you have the flag? Then I actually totally agree with Morphed that you should take away ALL the weapons the FC has (except laser), and his only way to survival will be to get out as fast as possible.

[Sepelio]

I wouldnt mind having just laser if it was 100% push. At least that way if there is heavy fire you will still need team mates to defend you, but allows normal methods for dodging obstacles.

[ai]

But I would mind :p As CTF is not about getting the flag as fast as possible and cap as fast as possible.

[TVR]

Logically incontestable threshold is not argument ...

Anything logically incontestable is not an subjective argument, but merely existing objective facts arranged in manner which prove an objective position.

The previous statements were logically incontestable [ie they were facts], its begs the question of what it is to say of the subjective arguments against objective facts.

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... Your suggestion makes running after a flag carrier useless cause you can't return the flag ... you touch the flag, reset timeout, you're nexed, another player touches, resets timeout, and so on and so on. ...

Just because one can't return the flag doesn't mean one should allow the the enemy flag carrier to escape with the flag.

Of course, I only mentioned no manual flag returns, but I never mentioned any systems to prevent such GPMs [GamePlay Mechanics] from forming [i.e. Flag returns in 30 seconds, 1 second is added to the timer every 2 or so seconds someone holds the flag], or drew any connection of periods between wave respawns allowing a window of opportunity.

This is another hidden thing, which makes game random, cause you can't predict exact time at which flag will return.

'This is' begs the question of how one could determine a detail never mentioned, without the use of baseless assumptions, and argue against it.

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy.

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... can't agree with most people opinion, what is balanced map. ...

Logical fallacy, appeal to tradition.

The popularity of an opinion is irrelevant to the validity of that opinion.

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... Nexuiz GPM isn't based on getting the flag before your opponent caps (and shouldn't). ...

Nexuiz GPMs encompasses both map design and game mode settings.

Nexuiz GPMs weigh the attacker to defender success ratio on the side of the attacker, because it is possible to escape by quick movement alone.

Therefore, it is more efficient to hold the enemy flag than to defend the flag.

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Grabbing the flag before your opponent is usual for fragfest maps (succersocks, eggandbacon) but not real ctf maps, who should have curves to prevent speedcaps, several ways from base to base and different fighting areas (tunnels, arena, air to air combat places) and of course be symmetric. Space maps usually do not work in nexuiz, cause they are made too small in comparison to player speed.

If you define 'real' CTF maps as ones that follow Quake or UT CTF map designs, then you are just further demonstrating your ignorance for why Quake or UT CTF map designs rely on GamePlay Mechanics [GPMs] that bias the attacker to defender success ratio to the side of the defender [if you happen to read this, it means the complete opposite of current Nexuiz GPMs.]

... Quake didn't bias anything ...

Quake GPMs favour the defender over the attacker on the success ratio, because it is much more difficult to enter and exit a defended base with the base's flag.

If the flag base constitutes an advantage to the defender, high-velocity in and out minimizes time in the base, and therefore the defender's location advantage.

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... Being accelerated by nex shot has almost no benefits ...

'Almost no', and absolutely no is the point which differentiates between benefit and disadvantage.

Flag carrier with lead experiences at least some benefit, pursuer receives not only no benefit, but notwithstanding, a disadvantage.

___________________________________

Trying to defend the base is less rewarding than attempting to retrieve the flag, as once the flag is returned, as long as the flag carrier has any lead on the opposing team respawn point, the flag carrier will be able to score before the opposing team can retake the flag due to the maintained lead from constant velocity.

What? He will still need to cross returning defenders line. You need one nex shot to kill his advance.

If the flag carrier has any lead on the enemy, lead being defined as lower time to reach base [which is constant even on differing routes], the flag carrier will score.

The flag carrier does not HAVE to remain in enemy territory, the flag carrier's base as a safe spot, for example.

Still I don't understand how does it cross defense line. Does it magically teleport or what?

Attacker surpasses defender on the Attacker to Defender success ratio.

Any defence, including 'defense line' will be less effective, player for player, than attack.

Therefore cross-capture is extremely common [Tribes CTF GPMs].

Once both flags are taken, the flag carriers can be at any place on the map, inclusive of hiding, or staying in their base.

Pursuing a flag carrier requires more effort than escaping from pursuers, therefore if the flag carrier has lead on the pursuers/closest enemy to base, the carrier is more likely to score than for the pursuers to successfully intercept the flag carrier.

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]Therefore, handicapping the flag carrier's acceleration is the simplest, and most effective method of balancing CTF across all maps with the exception of MojoCTF, the only existing balanced map [The opposing team is ALREADY able to retake the flag before the flag carrier can score] relying on player propulsion.

quake didn't handicap anyone.

IMO, your suggestion will increase amount of 0-0 games.

Nexuiz does not have the same GPMs as Quake, already proved to an logically incontestable threshold.

0-0 Captures, possibly if everyone is equal is every possible manner, such as reflexes, perfect play, latency, FPS, etc.

But unless any randomness is involved, completely equal players will achieve completely equal results in any game mode.

You don't need equal teams to get 0-0 scores. Some maps are just easier to defend than attack and even weaker team ...

0-0 is inherently equal, not anymore negative, to any other equal score, a higher, yet equal score only reflects the risks taken by each team [Distribution of attackers to each route].

Unequal scores reflect the adeptness disparity between both teams.

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... Nexuiz does not have same GPM as quake, yet the quake3 is the most relative game to nexuiz than any others. You could achieve very high speeds in quake3 too. ...

Quake 3 in terms of DM, but Tribes in terms of current effective CTF strategies.

Quake 3 CTF favours the defender, therefore defending the flag is more effective than cross-capture, while Tribes CTF favours the attacker, therefore holding the enemy flag is more effective than defending the flag.

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... EDIT:
And btw, the most balanced map (teamplay wise) is SUBSEATRACK which can be thought as antithesis of mojoctf. ... No speed removal is required for this map and only caps would work very well here. That's why I would vote for this. But because we have ONLY ONE map of such type, I'll probably should vote differently. ...

A solution which would grant more choice and greater balance, is to discern between CTF with established bases, and the use of CTF flags to implement the Halo:CE Race game mode [as was done with ctf_wtf to implement king of the hill].