CTF

[Ed]

without laserjumping its impossible to get the flag and get out of the base if they have 2 defenders .. for example greatwall reloaded , tell me how to get out it was hard with full speed but now you can not even cross the wall most of the time. and facing worlds turned into a camping game now

I don't consider Greatwall Reloaded or Facing Worlds balanced maps now anyway. Just because you can laserjump and jumpboost in Nexuiz, doesn't mean you should have to all of the time. It's the same with any game, just because a certain part of gameplay is possible does not mean it's a good idea for the entire game to work around it.

That in itself scares new players off as they can't hope to move around like some more experienced players. Facing Worlds just turns in to a joke when you have a team with two very experienced players laser jumping back and forth as a relay while a couple of not so good players on their team just camp at the top of each tower building up their personal scores and making the game no fun for the other side who just see the good players fly back and forth in between being nex'd by some camper. I would much rather see a UT2003 style Facing Worlds. The space between the bases is much bigger, a pyramid sits in the way preventing sniping from base to base and a set of jump pads means you can get around fast enough.

UT has the redeemer but a map dominated by the redeemer would not be much fun. HL2 has physics puzzles, that's OK in moderation, in bits where they put lots of physics puzzles together, it stopped being fun. Doom 3 has imps jumping out from behind panels. Scary on occasion, strangely predictable and boring in the maps where there's an imp behind a panel on every corridor.

[Mirio]

i will look out for a good example that you are too slow.

ok here we go.
edit: oops without url its stupid : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uSIUnfLpSE
i think with normal speed he would capture much easier ( i just missed that stupid flag and him ) . i'm pretty behind him and he boosts himself at the entry and in the base with the laser but we are at the flag at the same time. and its Sepelio so its not a noob. theres something wrong IMO.
ok lets see other opinions

[ai]

Somehow slowing down the flag carrier would help I think. Running along with a flag generally would slow you down. What about stopping laser jumping with the flag? That would put it somewhere in line with UT where you're not able to use the teleporter whilst carrying the flag or else you drop the flag.

I think only you, I and Morphed think like this otherwise all other people would absolutely hate it and kill any living being after a game online is over.

My opinion is exactly the same as Green Marines above.
I want caps only count and speed reduction. As I've been saying a lot, a CTF game is not about speed and how fast you can cap a flag, it's about teamplay and it should be nearly impossibly for a lone CTF runner to cap. What's the point of CTF without teamplay? Then at least name this 'mode' to something else and create a real old-school CTF mode.
Actually, if keeping the speed for the FC that alone works counter the whole idea of teamplay, as none would be needed in order to capture a flag. We've had this system for a while, and I haven't seen the teamplay increase that much. So why not try a change and see where that leads?
Think about it, when you guys attack and try to take the flag, do you even have a second thought about other teammates that back you up or do you just take the flag and rocket/laser yourself away from there and hope no one hits you with a Nex? Of how many runs do you actually think/know that there is someone who could cover you? My guess would be at most 1/10 runs.
An old player, OC, used to just go into enemy's base and try to take the flag without the support of teammates whatsoever. He just went for luck, if a good defender was there he wouldn't be able to score too much, but without any he scored time after time after time. This is exactly the thing I don't want to be possible in CTF without at least teamplay.

The thing is, people got spoiled with the 'frags count' and speed in the CTF mode and now that something new is introduced they are against it. It's like feeding children icecream and chips, then after a few years when you try to make them eat healthy food such as soup with vegetables and stuff they flat out refuse it, starts to scream kick and poop.
With frags counting people don't have to do too much to win a game. I also dislike the flag return point, as even I abuse it many times online just cause I'm too lazy to go to the enemies base and take the flag.
Defense is rewarding enough if the other team doesn't get any caps or very few. That's enough for me, if the mode was called DTF (Defend the Flag) then perhaps it would be sensible to win by defending.

EDIT: Any maps where you can Nex into the other teams base as a BAD map. That's just how it goes, of course people will complain about campers and have a hard time getting out of the base then. It's sooo obvious.

[alphagod]

without laserjumping its impossible to get the flag and get out of the base if they have 2 defenders .. for example greatwall reloaded , tell me how to get out it was hard with full speed but now you can not even cross the wall most of the time. and facing worlds turned into a camping game now , you get out of the base and *splash* you are dead new players will give up fast if they are not able to capture the flag imo. on greens server everybody except 1 person ( that was Own Age) said its bad ! just play there and try it our yourself. i will look out for a good example that you are too slow.

short version : Do NOT change anything with speed.

IMHO that's exactly why this reduced boosts feature should be default, first off you are saying you are going in alone and straight for the flag ignoring the defense, that is the exact reason I like the reduced boost, you can't just go into a base where there is defense and hope to get out of it without killing or at least preventing those guys from getting in your way. This is the perfect example of a kamikaze capper. Also it seems own-age wasn't the only one that actually finds this idea good, most of the people I actually consider good and respect as truly awesome players do not find this change as a bad one but as a strategic one.

Now I went with the reduced speed and points only count, as the current state of CTF is absolutely zero, as in UT where you can't teleport with the flag yet people still manage to cap even with the other players being at least three times faster than them and able to access areas where you can't get without dropping the flag. However and overall speed limit of the FC may work too, holding that it will stop the idea of being able to win the match alone as long as your team stops the other from getting the flag, because even with the FC limit on there have been a lot of caps done on all the servers that supported it and not once did a game end without a cap, even tough it is possible of winning it. This isn't a feature to FORCE teamplay, it is a feature to encourage it, if some players believe teamplay is non-existent and that others won't work as a team I suggest they at least try to act as backups to the other players, if the others won't back you up because of inexperience how about the good players try to at least act as a team, I've left and keep doing lots of stuff with other people even with them not knowing it or just seeing it like let them pick the flag and try to stop defend/boost them, leave armor/mega health to people that need it more than me even if i just have 100/0. This isn't a problem about the newbies it is a problem about experienced players, that even tough can conjure a strategy refuse to do so because they can just cap/camp(and get lots of frags) and ignore persistent problems with the CTF game.

I don't know if you guys tried to play UT with flags teleporting along with the player, but the current state of the CTF in Nexuiz is just like that, a simple learn the route and teleport/boost like crazy while hoping nobody good or newbie kills you, and I seriously fail to see the fun of a team game like that.

EDIT:

people got spoiled with the 'frags count' and speed in the CTF mode and now that something new is introduced they are against it.

^ Exactly what I was preparing to edit my post for Thank you ai.

[[-z-]]

Your comparison to sports is bad. In soccer, only goals count too. Yet still people try to play as a team sometimes

You just misunderstood my comparison. Yes, only goals count as I believe only flags should but the player statistics are shown and compared to others who play the same position. This emphasizes the fact that the other positions are indeed important.


How does everyone feel about limiting the number of lives per match? Say 2 lives for every minute left in the game (to solve for late joiners). I think that's more than fair, I'd actually prefer less to emphasize the importance of life but I know the classic "ZOMG dying isn't always bad" lame ass argument is going to come up.

Maybe some more sound clips for doing good jobs on defense? Like "nice did yoda show you that?" but for returning a flag in x amount of seconds.

We need to brainstorm on how to provide more incentive for other other positions.

[ai]

Limit the number of lives? I'm actually not sure if you're serious about this or not. But I just have one thing to say either way, this isn't CS.

[inficio]

i'll admit, while the reduction was on galt's, i've fallen back to more a support role. but if any of you've played with me on galt's before this, you've surely seen that i try to be competent in covering and escorting as allowed anyway. now, i don't mind covering people, i don't mind not getting the recognition on the scoreboard, but the reality is i've had to work harder on this system to receive less. and i also don't care if i'm not seen as pivotal when i know i'm the factor that changed the map's course. on pub games i personally focus on the team win...

but what bothers me is when i've gathered the resources (health/armor, weapons) to survive an onslaught in the enemy base, or i've entered enemy base and taken out a good number of defenders, only to find myself in a position where i can't capture cause no one else, either through incompetence or indifference, will help me. why would they when i've help put them at the top fo the scoreboard? at the public game level, few people care if their team wins or not. most only care about how they're perceived and how they do.

maybe my biggest gripe is for the past year i've enjoyed the experience of solo-running. sure, i've ruined other teams before, but i've been ruined by faster runners as well. i react to this the same way i react to the rocketboost crippling; you gave me wings and now you take them away. the people who are happy about speed reduction, well, i doubt they ever flew.

as to scoring, i'm open for changes, but i think after an interim people will see that the 'captures only' scoring will take away a lot from the current experience of nex ctf that is good. here's my concern with eliminating frags from the equation, without the reward of +1 on the scoreboard, what's the point of killing your opponents at non-critical times or junctures? i've seen newbies stop me while i've been on a mission just to shoot at me, and i'm thinking, i'm out here in the middle of no where and they're wasting their time on me. without frags counting, why have any skirmishes anywhere that aren't directly related to map control or in the flag room for attacking/defending? i see the two new proposed scoring methods, especially capture only, as essentially resulting in near constant blind respawn rushes on the bases.

[inficio]

regarding -z-'s idea for brainstorming ideas, the issue i've had with defending flag is the mad rush to return the flag after the carrier is killed. sometimes i understand it's absolutely time essential to get it back, but sometimes people are just assholes who take your +5. i understand the return part is as important as the kill, but it does serve to make sure the real defender is not often compensated fairly.

[alphagod]

How does everyone feel about limiting the number of lives per match? Say 2 lives for every minute left in the game (to solve for late joiners). I think that's more than fair, I'd actually prefer less to emphasize the importance of life but I know the classic "ZOMG dying isn't always bad" lame ass argument is going to come up.

For another game mode, maybe but having CTF this way sounds very limiting, I do approve of a Clan Arena mode tough, like one life per round and such but it would just break CTF, aka this would be a close thing to increasing the re-spawn delay to 30, and the whole team may be dead at one point and waiting for a long time to re-spawn is extremely annoying, I personally can't even stand a re-spawn delay of one second, although I like CA games, in normal situations where I know I should re-spawn as fast as possible it is unbearable.

As for sound more sound clips, how about the Q3 like medals, a more "rewarding" sprees display or such. At the moment the only thing that gives you an indication is the counter in the console, but having an actual text display right on or an icon to count defense, impressive or whatever else you can think of would actually increase the sense of accomplishment you receive from defending your flag or FC for example. A mix between UT sprees and Q3 medals perhaps would do the best job, with them custom tuned to Nexuiz of course.

EDIT: Inficio, while I admit, it may be annoying to gather lots and get to the base kill defenders and end up in a position where you can't cap(either because you don't have backup or you took too much damage) it never completely stops your chances of capping it may just be bad luck, either because nobody came with you or the defenders get one shot too many on you. In the second option taking the flag even with 100% boost is a bad idea, however if nobody came and you still have enough H/A you can of course still cap, it's just a matter of rethinking the way you go about it and timing your boosts better, you don't have a 100% success rate but you can and will be able to cap. IMO it's the defrag cappers that would win the most out of this change, they get better.

Now I've heard a lot of arguments about the idea of only "we" who have not gained wings liking this change, now I'm a good defrager, I can get a lot of speed and am usually very creative with my boosts and careful with their timing but I still like it, the 70% reduction only translates to a 80% or so speed reduction and can still be gained over time, if you are not based entirely on boosts it can get even higher to 90% reduction. This to me translates in even more experience to my movement, I've learned new, better ways to move around and better spots to jump because of this. So it's not just you people with wings that get hurt by it, my overall speed has decreased but not by the same completely crippling reduction some of the other guys have felt overall I've learned to get better by this change in ways I wouldn't even dream of before.

Now for the flag only change, while you may think just not killing the opponent might be a good idea, I see it as a very bad one, I as an attacker try to lay down as much damage as possible and take my kills with me every chance I get, depending on who, when and how fast I can get him, sure I do get some chances slip by or decide to ignore some opponents because of different reasons (Health, armor, ammo, weapons I may need) otherwise I find it ludicrous to just give the other team one more chance at taking my flag or getting in my teams way. While this change may be limiting to some areas of some maps in a both flags are safe situation, when one or both flags are taken, FC's and FC "hunters" will use those parts, also they can be used as relative safe passages from the middle of the fray, it would at the very least increase the tactical value of the map and each of it's areas.

[ai]

maybe my biggest gripe is for the past year i've enjoyed the experience of solo-running. sure, i've ruined other teams before, but i've been ruined by faster runners as well.

That's the whole point, no one should be able to cap all by themselves. That's not teamwork. And such games are ruined. I've experienced many games where the whole match was ruined because of fast flag carriers with no one being able to stop them, even me. A game like that isn't fun, ever. Possibly only for the capper.

i react to this the same way i react to the rocketboost crippling; you gave me wings and now you take them away.

Giving you wings was never intentionally intended. It was something that just evolved out the the physics.

the people who are happy about speed reduction, well, i doubt they ever flew.

I have flown a lot, I'm an experienced player, many other people that are supporting the reduction are too. Basically, the only people who are against is are those fast cappers who still want to cap fast. I don't even think the newbies will mind the reduction either, as they possibly aren't able to cap with or without the reduction (at least not by themselves). The reduction only makes it a bit easier for them to stop the carrier which possible strengthen their morals and a more fun experience for them.

And actually, experienced players are still able to cap, I still think it's easy to cap with the reduction (I don't care to cap fast, as long as I cap. That's why you never see me trying to break the sound barrier). It's mostly those who solely rely on speed who hates it.