CTF

[divVerent]

But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes.

This means you'd have to grab the flag 4 times and fail to score... and not kill a single player... I don't see how that's helping the team

Then how to help the team if the other team is so much stronger that nothing works?

[[-z-]]

People thought that reducing flag carrier speed was a very stupid thing to do to "enforce" teamplay. How do you think people will react to being kicked from game and brought to a spectator mode for trying to capture the flag but wasn't successful?

I feel like discouraging selfishness in team game is the right thing to do if we're looking to promote teamwork. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

Sometimes, people don't care about killing the enemies. They just stack up on armour, health and jump into the enemy base trying to take the flag and get the hell out of there.

And failing to cap after picking up the flag and taking all the health and armor without killing any enemies approaching your base leaves your team at a disadvantage. Some people may see making it to the flag as a successful thing but not being able to get far with it causes a lot of trouble for your team. Furthermore, if those enemies this selfish player didn't kill have defeated your weakened defense, you've now just handed an advantage over to the enemy.

If for example, I'm at the enemy base, stacking on THEIR health and armor, taking THEIR weapons, putting THEM at a disadvantage, planning my attack and a stacker as you described flies in a fails... I have to abandon my routine to assist them only to watch them die, my advantage declines and our team suffers the consequences due to a selfish act by the other player.

Nexuiz may seem to fast to some to consider coordinated attacks but they are what lead to the highest probability of success.

That's how MOST good cappers play out there, they don't care much about killing any pursuers or anything (which is wrong yes I know, but they are still stubborn).

And largely, the only reason this works for them is because their teammates pick up the slack. I don't believe MOST good cappers JUST grab the flag and run. They disable their enemy, put them at a disadvantage and flee the base with the flag when they are in a stronger position. Working together increases the success rate.

Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction

I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.


Negative flag pickups also discourage flag sitting... who wants to sit on a flag for -5 points?

[[-z-]]

But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes.

This means you'd have to grab the flag 4 times and fail to score... and not kill a single player... I don't see how that's helping the team

Then how to help the team if the other team is so much stronger that nothing works?

Refer to my other thread about team balancing.

[divVerent]

That solution is not implemented, as I still do not understand how it helps. It still can make the problem worse. But that does not belong here.

However, with three mediocre players and one really skilled player, no team balance algorithm that ensures a 2vs2 game can ever fix it, but an algorithm that does not ensure equally sized teams can lead to REALLY bad disparity between teams. Even in 1vs3, the balance may be way off, and the three may have no chance at all.

And forcing one of the three to spectate really isn't going to help.

[[-z-]]

We aren't looking for a perfect solution. We're looking for something that will improve _most_ situations... something better better than what we have. Hope is still alive!


Yes we can!

[ai]

People thought that reducing flag carrier speed was a very stupid thing to do to "enforce" teamplay. How do you think people will react to being kicked from game and brought to a spectator mode for trying to capture the flag but wasn't successful?

I feel like discouraging selfishness in team game is the right thing to do if we're looking to promote teamwork. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

You still haven't answered my question. But I can answer this for you. People will STOP playing CTF if they are FORCED to spectate. Also this "solution" is like a death-sentence to newbies and people not so skilled.
No game in the world has the right to force someone to spectate just because they are doing bad in the game (purposely or not, that's the admin's job to tangle with).
Honestly, your solution is no solution at all.

Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction

I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.

I don't really get how your mind works. You think speed reduction would make teamplay worse, yet forcing players to spectate, yeah that will help teamplay, take away one guy from the team

Negative flag pickups also discourage flag sitting... who wants to sit on a flag for -5 points?

Negative flag pickups discourage players to PICK UP the flag. At least I wouldn't want to pick it up if I got negative score. There's really no point in this.

Anyway Z, I don't think your system will be in place anyway, Alien, me and even Div disagrees with this, and I bet many other would too if they just read this
Getting negative score for picking up the flag is taking punishment for the predecessor. Pretty much like: "Hey, your dad owes us money, but he is dead so you, his son, will have to pay us.".
That's just wrong.

[Alien]

What do you want to improve (teamplay or balance)? Cause these are two different cases.

[divVerent]

Well, I have a more constructive idea than forcing players to spectate (which is equivalent to a kick, as they will simply leave and connect to another server):

What about, instead, showing to the "bad performers" a shield around the enemy flag point, and making them unable to pick up the enemy flag from the enemy's base, combined with a message "You have been forced to defend for multiple unsuccessfull capture attempts - defend your base until further notice" that is displayed all the time? They'll learn fast. Of course they should still be able to pick up DROPPED flags.

Of course, one would have to make sure that not many of a team are blocked by this. So maybe the threshold would be -10 points, but if more than half of your team has -10 points, only the worst half would get this "flag blockage". Also, the blockage would not suddenly appear when someone else joins (with 0 points) or a bad performer disconnects, but only when you actually lose points.

But the last thing you can do is forcing players to spectate for "just playing bad". Not everyone can aim well, not everyone can jump well, but they need to train to be good - and you're taking away their ability to train.

[[-z-]]

You still haven't answered my question. But I can answer this for you. People will STOP playing CTF if they are FORCED to spectate. Also this "solution" is like a death-sentence to newbies and people not so skilled.
No game in the world has the right to force someone to spectate just because they are doing bad in the game (purposely or not, that's the admin's job to tangle with).
Honestly, your solution is no solution at all.

Please don't state things as fact if you haven't proven them as such. We know that such systems already work, it's called conditioning through negative reinforcement. We already know the positive reinforcement isn't enough so I've attempted to widen the scope. It's as simple as, "follow the rules or you'll be punished". Those who can't learn how to play, shouldn't be allowed to ruin the game for those who have.

Again you're blowing the simple idea out of proportion. It takes EFFORT to fail this hard. Assuming the player has gotten 1 kill and no suicides... they'd have to drop the flag 5 times without scoring or killing...

Just think about that before you tell me, "it's no solution at all".

Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction

I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.

I don't really get how your mind works. You think speed reduction would make teamplay worse, yet forcing players to spectate, yeah that will help teamplay, take away one guy from the team

Forcing SELFISH PLAYERS to spectate will increase teamplay by alleviating the problem and allowing players who work together to work together without worrying about a kamikaze screwing up their plan.

Anyway Z, I don't think your system will be in place anyway, Alien, me and even Div disagrees with this, and I bet many other would too if they just read this
Getting negative score for picking up the flag is taking punishment for the predecessor. Pretty much like: "Hey, your dad owes us money, but he is dead so you, his son, will have to pay us.".
That's just wrong.

What? Did you somehow miss all the times div has said my system appears to be working?

[torus]

Jesus Christ, have you all gone mad? Stopping players from picking up the flag? Kicking them if they pick it up too much? This is absurd. We need to be PROMOTING defense of the flag carrier, not punishing him if his team is too stupid to defend him. IMO, I think this problem would be solved by eliminating points (added OR subtracted) for flag returns. That would also discourage people from doing stuff like lasering teammates away from a flag so they can return it, which is bad for the team.