CTF

[[-z-]]

The best defense is a good offense. If you're up a flag carrier's butt, you're getting in his way and killing his momentum, not to mention, the many times teammates eat your exit rockets.

If you want to help the flag carrier, kill the enemies, keep them weak and give your FC space to run.

[Alien]

Why do you need to over-complicate the game with such things as blockage or spectating? Maybe we should start discussing TVR's idea about non-returnable flags again?

Player gets lower score, that's enough. Why gameplay should be artificially changed at all?

Ok, ok, div won't agree with me. Here it is, why his idea is bad. 3noobs 1good at both teams. 3noobs camp and kill 1good each time he takes the flag. Both good ones can't take flags anymore and 3noobs won't attack cause they're happy campers. Game is stalled.

Jesus Christ, have you all gone mad? Stopping players from picking up the flag? Kicking them if they pick it up too much? This is absurd. We need to be PROMOTING defense of the flag carrier, not punishing him if his team is too stupid to defend him. IMO, I think this problem would be solved by eliminating points (added OR subtracted) for flag returns. That would also discourage people from doing stuff like lasering teammates away from a flag so they can return it, which is bad for the team.

Finally, some SANE voice.

Those who can't learn how to play, shouldn't be allowed to ruin the game for those who have.

It's better to have pw protected server than to kick those who are unable to play according to your standards.

[ai]

I am, and will always be for a cap only system. No points for flag returns or for taking flags. However, people apparently hate this.
And to Z, your solution is no solution. Even if it takes effort to lose that hard, the option to FORCE players to spectate is no option. No sane person would ever agree upon this. Selfish, arrogant, stupid, misbehaving, teamkilling and etc. doesn't matter. It's still an admins job to deal with such players not the ACTUAL gameplay. No one will ever play CTF with such system.

Yes, I know that Div agrees with some points, but his last posts didn't give me the impression that he liked this system.

The overall thing should have a simple solution, not a complicated where points fly about everywhere. That is not a CTF game. A true CTF is a cap only CTF, that's the case and that's how it always will be.

[[-z-]]

Well I can see you don't care enough to prove your points with evidence. Your passion is admirable but your preconceptions and assumptions aren't enough to convince me that my proposed system won't improve gameplay. Letting people continually degrade the quality of gameplay through selfish acts that require EFFORT TO FAIL as hard as they do go unpunished doesn't provoke a change in mentality or understanding of how the game is meant to be played.

Your opinion != everyone elses

Please stop stating things as fact if you cannot back them up with evidence.

My scoring system doesn't change "classic CTF". It attributes a risk to the flag, creating further depth in the achievement of a flag capture while simultaneously teaching new players how to strategize non-verbally.

I have explained from a psychological standpoint how this system will improve gameplay, there is evidence the system has made a difference.

Points aren't "flying about" it's a really simple system, if you aren't willing to sacrifice 5 points to pickup the flag, you lack the confidence needed to be a successful flag carrier and can probably earn more points playing defense.

What about, instead, showing to the "bad performers" a shield around the enemy flag point, and making them unable to pick up the enemy flag from the enemy's base, combined with a message "You have been forced to defend for multiple unsuccessfull capture attempts - defend your base until further notice" that is displayed all the time? They'll learn fast. Of course they should still be able to pick up DROPPED flags.

Of course, one would have to make sure that not many of a team are blocked by this. So maybe the threshold would be -10 points, but if more than half of your team has -10 points, only the worst half would get this "flag blockage". Also, the blockage would not suddenly appear when someone else joins (with 0 points) or a bad performer disconnects, but only when you actually lose points.

This is a similar solution I'd agree to, probably even accept over forced spectating... though I still believe spectating is one of the best ways to learn. My solution while not as elegant as this, was just a simple way to have the program admin for you.


Another thing I think can help is an emphasis on the flag score time. I know divVerent doesn't want to add more columns but the "fastest flag cap time" column would also emphasis the importance of capturing fast.

While you hold the flag, you are a liability. The faster you cap, the smaller the liability.

[ai]

I don't really understand what you mean with back up my standpoint. What have I stated as a fact? All I said is that your system with forcing players to go to spectating mode won't solve anything. They will get annoyed, troll on the forums and then disappear forever. I'm not saying this is a fact, I'm saying this is a very high probability.

Also your system is not "classic CTF". Classic CTF does not force players to go to spectate mode, classic CTF does not give points for flags you take, classic CTF does not give points for flag return, alas your system is not classic CTF. Cap only system is classic CTF. Go play older games such as UT and you'll see (If I'm wrong about this I'll apologize later).
I know my opinion != everyone elses, never stated it was either. However, many people still wants cap only system. Are you just gonna ignore their opinion? Try at least to COMPROMISE, don't shun them away. I have compromised, why are you so afraid to do it?
Also, I say the same thing to you. Your opinion != everyone elses.

I agree with Alien that picking up a flag is a good thing, I say it again, picking up a flag is a GOOD thing. So if a teammate loses a flag HE should be punished not the next guy coming there and tried to save the flag. This is beyond ridiculousness, honestly it's the most stupid idea I've heard. Not trying to be mean or anything I'm just saying my statement. Always thought this was stupid and always will.

Unless you actually meant if you lose the flag but then you again pick up the flag THEN I understand why he would lose points. But don't punish the next guy, he had nothing to do with the flag being dropped. And don't come with "but he could help the flag carrier etc." as firstly, the flag carrier could be someone who acts on his own without hintest clue that he has teammates, and secondly he COULD have tried to help but failed. Then he DID a good thing but he simply wasn't able to fulfill his goal. So now, even though he did a good thing, he should be punished for doing another good thing? Why not just send him straight to hell where good things doesn't matter?

Alas I'm also not saying your entire system is stupid, but I'm saying forcing players to spectate and punishing for flag pickups THAT'S stupid. THAT'S what I'm debating about. And there are people who are with me on that point, like Alien AND Div ... and Torus I believe?

[[-z-]]

Hmm... I never said my opinion was everyone else's, in fact, I believe it's painfully obvious I'm going AGAINST the norm.

Seeing as how the point system is a secondary system, meaning only flag captures count, it still is classic CTF. There's just an added dimension in personal achievements. Do you read my posts? Do you even understand the system you're fighting against? I know you don't because of the issues I've addressed below.


I agree that picking up the flag is a good thing but I don't think you should say, "Congratulations for making it into the base, grabbing the flag and dying, here's 5 points for touching the flag!"

This hurts the team.

So if a teammate loses a flag HE should be punished not the next guy coming there and tried to save the flag.

Furthering my point that you don't understand my system. OUT OF BASE FLAG PICKUPS ARE NOT NEGATIVE. Only in base pickups are. If fact, you can gain up to 5 points for picking it up. I don't want to confuse you further if you haven't even taken the time to read about my system, but if you're interested it's a time based system detailed in the link I provided below.

This is beyond ridiculousness, honestly it's the most stupid idea I've heard. Not trying to be mean or anything I'm just saying my statement. Always thought this was stupid and always will.

Insults come from a spot of weakness. You haven't taken the time to understand why my system is designed the way it is and based on these assumptions, it's no wonder you think it's bad.

Alas I'm also not saying your entire system is stupid, but I'm saying forcing players to spectate and punishing for flag pickups THAT'S stupid. THAT'S what I'm debating about. And there are people who are with me on that point, like Alien AND Div ... and Torus I believe?

Again, thanks for taking the time to read the post I made above this...



this is my system explained if you want to educate yourself before telling me I'm wrong based on your assumptions.

[ai]

You made three points which tell the same thing. I have read your system. I don't care where on the map you are, you still should not be punished for flag pickups. That's just my opinion.

Insults come from a spot of weakness.

I didn't insult, or meant it as an insult. I said it as that's what I think it is. Also, I have no weaknesses I'm all smooth like GI Joe's other regions.

And lastly, forcing players to spectate IS stupid. Yet again, this is not meant as an insult but as actual TRUTH.

[[-z-]]

The only thing that's stupid is you not admitting you didn't read or comprehend my system. Your points were clearly against your assumptions, not my system.

I don't care where on the map you are, you still should not be punished for flag pickups

You not caring and you not understanding how the system is designed are two different things. Focusing on the fact that negative flag pickups seems backwards is silly if you're not looking at it with consideration of the entire system.

From a consequential view, the system is working and I welcome ideas that don't require a negative pickup but still achieve the same results. Something divVerent's "punish bubble" suggestion actually works more towards than saying, "Make it like the old games! You're breaking it! It's stupid!"

And lastly, forcing players to spectate IS stupid. Yet again, this is not meant as an insult but as actual TRUTH.

Stating your opinions as fact again... and even after I told you to read my previous post, you still think I see this as the best solution. I understand that you don't like it but calling it "stupid"? You couldn't find a better description? "Frustrating for new players", perhaps but it's also "frustrating for old players" if these kamikaze players aren't learning from their mistakes.

However, we can drop this argument because I've already said (3 times) I'm in favor of divVerent's protective bubble idea.


I'm trying to clarify misunderstandings, not win an argument. I'd appreciate it if you took an honest second to understand my system before denouncing it.

[ai]

The word 'stupid' doesn't only act as an 'insult' but the word stupidity means that it's not intelligent or as wise as another equivalent solution. Thus I used that word. Not because I dislike you or your system, it's only the forced spectation I referred to as 'stupid'. If it in fact somewhere along the posts was perceived I did refer to the whole system as stupid I do apologize for that.

But yeah, I too agree that we should drop this. Cause I believe your suggestions, punishing the flag pickuper and forcing player spectation won't ever happen. And that I in fact did read your whole system but convincing you of that supposedly is not possible. But I also don't really care about that either.

So, we're going with my proposal then?

[Alien]

Classic CTF is Threewave's CTF mod for QUAKE 1.

Anyway, take a look at this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7510655150