CTF

[[-z-]]

The only system that would "force" a player to do anything would be the bubble, which again, takes effort to fail that hard. The scoring is purely psychological.

I told you on IRC that it doesn't matter even if it's IMPOSSIBLE to fail that hard. That has nothing to do with the whole thing, it STILL forces players to play as one role. Again, you cannot use the "it takes skill to fail that hard" argument. That's not valid.

It forces them to any role but one. There's a reason people are giving licenses to drive cars and reasons they get them suspended. This works on the same principle, to protect the the larger group. I too am for individual rights and power but I think those who abuse, should lose it.

The case has been closed to you since I opened the topic, who are you kidding?

I was referring to you not understanding that I DO understand your system and thus you blame me saying that's the reason I don't like it. Not to this topic, read more carefully my posts. That's what I referred to as case closed.

I read your loosely worded posts very carefully. I try to explain to you how your vagueness can cause confusion... usually to your benefit. You may or may not be aware of the fact that your wording is manipulative. Stating, "the majority" without a reference point is a prime example.

Oh and on a final note, I do not have an nexuiz ninja account and will never create one. I am not lurking on those forums. You should also not expect everyone to be there either.
I'd rather be on the official forums than some community dividing the already small community. I've never actually liked that that happened in the first place anyway.

Well that's great, this post is about CTF and now you're turning it into personal attacks on a community that's aided in the recent popularity and advances within the game. Since your opinion is out in the open now, I think it's only fair I argue this point to defend the ninjaz. However, if you'd like to continue this unrelated argument, I'd prefer we do so somewhere else.

How arrogant are you to post in a public forum in a thread about CTF an attack on a community you're essentially saying you're too good for?

I suppose it's easy for people to forget how hard it was to find information on Nexuiz before the Ninjaz were around but there was once a time when a google search yielded nothing but garbage. My background is in web development and SEO. My degree is in Computer Networks and Information Systems, a major where I learn a lot about Management of Information Systems. I created the Nexuiz Ninjaz to contribute back to the game in the way that I could. Practicing these arts, I recreated the homepage, contributed graphics, maps, code, web applications, theories and knowledge, working closely with other developers and ninjaz to improve the game. I've provided, with the help of many ninjaz, back links and references to build a story around this community giving it credibility and exposure. The Ninjaz is a way to get these ideas organized from people who seek more from this open-source game. What you see in the forums is only a small percentage of what we actually do.

If you think we're a group of elitists who are dividing this community, you once again haven't taken the time to understand. There are a small group of members who may offend you but they do not have in their hearts and minds the knowledge and drive we've built the community on.

I don't expect everyone to lurk the forums, but I did expect you to read a thread I linked to and you claimed you read. You sir, are full of shit and I'm losing patience.

[Dokujisan]

Oh and on a final note, I do not have an nexuiz ninja account and will never create one. I am not lurking on those forums. You should also not expect everyone to be there either.

I'd rather be on the official forums than some community dividing the already small community. I've never actually liked that that happened in the first place anyway.

Attitudes like this are the reason that I appreciate the Nexuiz Ninjaz sub-community. I see it as a safe haven for those in the Nexuiz community who are a lot less closed minded, and have less attitude when new ideas are brought up.

[divVerent]

Right. As you NNs prove, NNs don't want the game to be fun for new players, or players who lack the skill. They want it to be fun for themselves only, and "pwn the nubz".

Sure, it won't be YOU who'll see that bubble...

But what you are forgetting is that this is a game, and meant to be somewhat enjoyable. Using sheer force to make players always work for the good of their team might be a good idea from the teamplay perspective, even kicking players who aren't that good may be. But it is a bad move from the perspective of the player who's affected, who's likely a new player or someone who lacks abilities. Still, he wants to enjoy the game too, and taking away the remaining means using which he, at his low skill, can enjoy the game will simply make him leave the game.

See the outrage even the flag carrier slowing down caused. See the outrage caused by something as unimportant as negative personal scores for flag pickup. Some people simply want to enjoy the game in a way that maybe isn't the best for the team. Others can't do any better, and want to learn the game through actual playing. Nothing is wrong with that. And no, neither can theory entirely replace aiming and moving skill, nor is every gamer mentally able to understand the game in all depths. Are you discriminating against such people? Hint: one of your favorite mappers in NN actually has no good analytic thinking abilities. You play his maps anyway. But do you really want to change the game in a way so he can't enjoy it any more?

You can't turn public servers into competitive ones that way. I learned that lesson too, after the flag carrier slowdown thing. It might work TECHNICALLY, but it is simply nothing you can do to your fellow players, who'll then simply play elsewhere.

Maybe NNs should add "To all newbies: no fun allowed, this is not a game, this is military drill, do what the master says" to their server MOTDs...

Of course, on your own server, you can do whatever you want, but don't impose it on the majority of players, who simply want to have fun, want to relax from their work day, their school, whatever.

[[-z-]]

We don't want to "pwn nubs" if you think that's our mentality,

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND OUR COMMUNITY.

I guess providing the largest collection of Nexuiz related resources isn't enough to convince you because we purely did that for our selfish awesome selfs as you see it. This pessimistic attitude has and always will be the demise of this community.

The golden rule of the Ninjaz is respect. Something this community could give a shit less about. You continue to spread hate and negativity within the community but point your finger at us as the cause? Please! We've put Nexuiz on the map. Do you think this is an accident?

I think it's pretty stupid to shit on the people that help you because you're assuming they are negatively affecting the community at large because a few people shoot their mouths off. The squeaky wheel gets the grease though, right?



A good leader would try and understand the bigger picture.



We're open to new ideas, not just this communism bullshit you thinks a better solution because it's "tried and true". We share our ideas, challenging each other but most of all try to have fun. Personally, I try to PLAY, not PWN as I've said many times. I can't speak for every ninja because I'm only myself but I can tell you that I, the leader of this community try to teach and spread knowledge. I try and provide resources and encourage others to do the same.

If you're supporting the freedom of an individual to repeated pickup and drop the flag at the cost of the team, I'd assume it's because you're that selfish idiot who does it.

For those that don't lurk the NN forums, here's an article I wrote about the aforementioned mapper who at times, has trouble keeping his ideology under wraps, [Game Theory] How I Understand Desert Castles. The last explosion was due to close-minded assholes, who are participating in this VERY THREAD that provoked him. He's a smart guy but you can't seem to look past his faults and because I can, you assume I'm a supporter of hate and oppression.

I'm not scared to think outside the box and challenge myself even when it goes against convention. I'm sorry some of you feel more comfortable that way.

[Dokujisan]

Right. As you NNs prove, NNs don't want the game to be fun for new players, or players who lack the skill. They want it to be fun for themselves only, and "pwn the nubz".

. . .

Maybe NNs should add "To all newbies: no fun allowed, this is not a game, this is military drill, do what the master says" to their server MOTDs...

Div, that is probably the most misinformed comment I've ever heard you make. Where the hell do you get these ideas?

I've personally spent about a gazillion hours helping to train new players to help improve their skills. I know other people have done the same. I ran a "Nexuiz school" server for a while (using a mod that Mr Bougo made) to help teach newer players. I operate my private servers (the batcave servers) just for the sole purpose of helping to build up the community, which involves bringing in newer players with good attitudes and allowing them to raise their skill level by playing on those servers.

Now, I didn't do all of this under the banner of "Nexuiz Ninjaz", but I think it falls under the same mindset as Nexuiz Ninjaz, and it involves a lot of the same people.

I've always criticized the Nexuiz community on Alientrap for being WAY too closed minded, and, quite frankly, bitchy when it comes to discussing new ideas. For this reason, Nexuiz Ninjaz is a breath of fresh air. As far as ideas, -z- has his, I have mine, other people have more ideas. Personally, I think all ideas should be placed on the table. The more the merrier. That is a common mindset on the NN forums, but that is not a common mindset on the Alientrap forums.

I know -z- has gotten in heated arguments with a number of people over the last year, and I think a lot of these arguments result from the fact that -z- has a ton of passion about anything that he is involved in. Early on, I had a negative impression of him at one point, but my opinion of him has changed because HE has changed dramatically over the past year. He's not the same person he was a year ago, or even 6 months ago, and he's always seeking to improve himself. So I respect him for that. I think this is because he has the mindset of constantly questioning things and wanting to evolve. That is what I see as the heart of Nexuiz Ninjaz concept right there, the want to improve and evolve. That is why I like it better than the Alientrap community, which has a tendency to stifle ideas, and ultimately, the evolution of Nexuiz and its community.

Put it this way, if the Alientrap community weren't so closed minded, I would personally recruit a group of people from within the community to make a push in trying to find more developers to get involved in Nexuiz development (to help Divverent). But since the Alientrap community is closed minded, I kind of don't give a shit. I'll just wait until Div ultimately quits and then the Alientrap community will HAVE to consider new ideas to find more developers.

[ai]

Ok, I believe this will be a rather long post. I'm not attacking anyone here and one way you know that is buy reading slowly (literally) and calmly. Here goes:

It forces them to any role but one.

There aren't that many roles on CTF. 3 Mainly, even 4 if you count running around and goofing off, not helping the team nor trying to make them fail. Just run around checking out the textures, map structure etc.

I read your loosely worded posts very carefully. I try to explain to you how your vagueness can cause confusion... usually to your benefit. You may or may not be aware of the fact that your wording is manipulative. Stating, "the majority" without a reference point is a prime example.

My posts aren't loosely formed, if you think so then that's just you. My posts say exactly what it says. I don't really see thought how you could have misunderstood this:

So what you basically are saying is this: Because you don't agree with my system you obviously don't understand it. So take time to understand the system and you WILL see it the same way I do.

No, that's wrong. I'll say it ONE more time and this time it's the LAST time I say it. I DO understand the WHOLE system FULLY. I STILL think it's not the way to go.
If you insist that I still don't understand it because I don't agree then you need to get out from your little corner and see the world.

No more on that point, case closed.

How should I have phrased it better for you to understand? (I'm asking sincerely)

Well that's great, this post is about CTF and now you're turning it into personal attacks on a community that's aided in the recent popularity and advances within the game. Since your opinion is out in the open now, I think it's only fair I argue this point to defend the ninjaz. However, if you'd like to continue this unrelated argument, I'd prefer we do so somewhere else.

[...]

How arrogant are you to post in a public forum in a thread about CTF an attack on a community you're essentially saying you're too good for?

This wasn't a personal attack or anything. My opinion is already out there. Here's the thing: When Nexuiz Ninjas was formed you guys created a community. Now I'm all for that, however, what I disliked a bit was that you would split (at that time) a very small community in two. I was thinking why not just concentrate on this one and make the best of that. Creating a site is all well and good, but another forum was beyond me why anyone would want to do that. So out of respect to this official one I didn't go there.

On that note too, (and what I tried to say is that) you can't expect people to sing up on all these different forums, checking them for new stuff all the time. People don't generally live on forums all the time and some doesn't like to have to go to different places to see what's up. This is especially true to forums that has the same goal (and topic) in mind. Going to two different communities which evolves around the same thing (Nexuiz).
Creating another community in that way disrespects people who have more going on in their lives than just surfing. That's what I didn't like, that's also the reason why I didn't want to sign up (and haven't done so, and probably won't). I don't have time, or want, to browse different forums, which has basically is on the same topic.
I know people who shared this opinion, and having this opinion is nothing wrong either.

No keep in mind, back in those days the community was already very small and you divided it in a way. This was not a personal attack to you or your work.

I don't expect everyone to lurk the forums, but I did expect you to read a thread I linked to and you claimed you read. You sir, are full of shit and I'm losing patience.

I read the thread you posted on these forums, not the Nexuiz Ninjas. If I was misinformed by that thread it just means it didn't include as much information as the NN one, which makes you at fault here.

Attitudes like this are the reason that I appreciate the Nexuiz Ninjaz sub-community. I see it as a safe haven for those in the Nexuiz community who are a lot less closed minded, and have less attitude when new ideas are brought up.

You obviously misunderstood my post too, didn't take time to read or got influenced by Z's outrage.
If it was the post please say so. I was actually in a hurry when I wrote that but I'll try to see that won't happen again.

----------------------------

Some words:
Yes, ideas are good. But you guys also need to understand that too many ideas can, or is, a bad thing. People coming with suggestions to "improve" the game all the time without caring for what it actually is or stands for will eventually destroy what makes Nexuiz Nexuiz.
Someone on these forums said that ideas should be well thought of and not half-asses that just randomly spurs out of ones' mouth. Giving suggestions and ideas also need to take into consideration the very foundation that this game was built on. Without understanding that you will totally change it. This is what you call 'close minded'. Not to mention, who would do these implementations? You? No it would fall on the development team. If you decided or was willing to give a hand then that's great, but most of the people coming with these suggestions doesn't even think about that.

This community is the most tolerant I've seen and yet you shoot it down when it doesn't agree with your views. It's like a random guy would come to a <insertRandomGameNameHere> and suggested they should do <insertRandomCrazyThingHere>. Of course only genuine proposals are taken into consideration. So 'the more the merrier' is not such a good thing.
You say we don't understand your community, it seems as if you also don't understand this one.

Please stop with these insults and attacks. I see that much temper is being thrown around, which most comes from the NN.
This community has always been friendly and controlled in the responses, which some of you seem to lack a bit of.

And some final words:

For those that don't lurk the NN forums, here's an article I wrote about the aforementioned mapper who at times, has trouble keeping his ideology under wraps, [Game Theory] How I Understand Desert Castles. The last explosion was due to close-minded assholes, who are participating in this VERY THREAD that provoked him. He's a smart guy but you can't seem to look past his faults and because I can, you assume I'm a supporter of hate and oppression.

No, you're wrong.
I know you're one to defend the "bad" people like a lawyer defends them for money. But you seem to also miss one important thing here.
The one you're talking about has caused much hate and intolerance around here. Just because you can see past these qualities doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, the majority of people are not tolerant of others with these strong opinions and values. However, that's not even the point. It would be all and well if those opinions where kept to themselves. Coming to a gamer community spouting out something that the majority (and you also would know this) is against, that's a very bad thing. And it also has another word: 'Provoke'.
Of course if a guy/gal provokes people they will react to that in a bad way and banning him.
If you're not easily provoked then good for you. But others are and don't share your "good Samaritan" views. This is a gaming community, things like that does not belong here, and continuously coming here, spouting out these things and provoking people, how do you people to react? Like you? Trying to help the guy? Or will they simple ban him and hopefully get rid of him? Just because people aren't sharing the same views as you does not give you the right to call them "assholes". That's a good way to lose some fingers, credibility and respect.

----------------------------

I ope you've read the entire post and I thank you for it. Now please respond in a friendly way without insults or other dis-pleasantries if you're going to respond.
Again, I just tried to share some light to the whole matter and how 'I / some of us' actually view the things.

[[-z-]]

Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly. You haven't read threads I specifically linked to, told me you did but now you're taking it back and saying you read what I posted here. I'd like to repeat that I think you're full of shit and speak loosely.

You don't understand who the ninjaz are and what we are about so I'm not going to bother reading your uninformed opinions any longer. I'm pretty convinced you don't even read my posts in full based on what I did just read of your reply.

I'm not a man who likes to waste time and that's all you've been doing. Wasting time.

[ai]

Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

Other than that, yes I have read your thread, here. Not on the NN site. I'm not going back on my word, I never said I read your thread over at NN. Sure I didn't specify it was here, but I thought that was clear as this is where we talk anyway.

And thank you for taking time reading the post... You're a man of honor...

[[-z-]]

Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

This is EXACTLY the problem. Lack of respect for people outside your community. (I know you're going to try and throw this one back in my face, which will further emphasize my point that you don't understand the ninjaz).

Other than that, yes I have read your thread, here. Not on the NN site. I'm not going back on my word, I never said I read your thread over at NN. Sure I didn't specify it was here, but I thought that was clear as this is where we talk anyway.

I linked you to the NN thread for a reason. You told me you read it, you didn't tell me you read something DIFFERENT than what I asked you to read.

[ai]

Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

This is EXACTLY the problem.

Oh my, come on. You're going to argue about a spelling error? I'm sorry but I spell my 'ninjas' with 's' not 'z'. I didn't put an 's' out or respect, I thought that how you spelled it. Yes, I forgot you used 'z'. But come on, THIS is not a major problem. You're making mountains out of mole hills. Drama queen.

I linked you to the NN thread for a reason. You told me you read it, you didn't tell me you read something DIFFERENT than what I asked you to read.

Yeah ok, that was my bad. I thought you meant the thread on this one. I didn't go to the NN site as I don't want to go there and I assumed that what you wrote there is the same thing that you wrote here. So what does it matter where I go? Or didn't you include all the information of your system on these forums?

Man, I'm giving up on you. I tried to reason with you but I cannot do it anymore. You don't listen to others and when you have made your mind up on something it seems nothing can convince you otherwise.
I don't CARE if you think I've read it or not. I'm not going to repeat myself. Anyway, good luck to you. I've said mine. I'm going to bed.
Don't respond to this as I won't actually be involved in the same argument with the same dead ends.

Good night.