CTF

[mand1nga]

Well this is a little bit offtopic, but going with the flow of this thread I just want to say a few things. I agree and support every word that div0 wrote on his last post, although I consider the NN website as a good thing. Since many months I'm mostly lurking on this forum just trying to be informed about Nexuiz stuff, have fun and trying to understand what is going on, planning to contribute code to the project some day. But this thread became really painful to read and it came as a suprise to me that "ad hominem" arguments are not as outdated as I believed.

And I still can't understand how many people willing to spend endless hours trying to convince the world that their ideas are the way to go, just don't spend this precious time learning quake c and the Nexuiz codebase, making and testing their ideas empirically.

This wasn't a personal attack or anything. My opinion is already out there. Here's the thing: When Nexuiz Ninjas was formed you guys created a community. Now I'm all for that, however, what I disliked a bit was that you would split (at that time) a very small community in two.

Agreed. I was about to write the same. I don't think this forum split is a good for the Nexuiz community as a whole.

The golden rule of the Ninjaz is respect. Something this community could give a shit less about. You continue to spread hate and negativity within the community but point your finger at us as the cause? Please! We've put Nexuiz on the map. Do you think this is an accident?

I'm not sure about your behaviour beign congruent with this sentence.

A good leader would try and understand the bigger picture.

I honestly suggest to you that better don't waste your time with sentences like this, div0 is a leader already.

[k0jak]

You can't turn public servers into competitive ones that way. I learned that lesson too, after the flag carrier slowdown thing. It might work TECHNICALLY, but it is simply nothing you can do to your fellow players, who'll then simply play elsewhere.

I said this a while ago to several people here, i like public servers, but you must remember they are public servers and not everyone will play in the same way you will want too with great teamwork e.t.c, this is why clans and competitive games allow for this change, well just my 2 cents

Oh and like i said before i kinda like the idea of reduced flag-carrier speed divVerent if it helps to encourage some more teamplay even on publuc servers or competition, i mean its one simple change not something really complicated, if people don't like it then fair enough but i totally agree with you saying too many people like the open-wide maps and like to just zoom over everything where it isn't a problem in enclosed maps

[[-z-]]

You fail to understand our community but tell me you do. What you know is what you see and what you care to learn and understand. This is usually what directly affects you. However, as a manager, I'm required to see and understand a lot more.

As the leader of the Ninja community for nearly a year, following my involvement here, on IRC and in game I'm inclined to assume I know a bit more about the ninjaz and our culture. Yet you have the impudence to tell me I lack respect?

Check yourself.



Continue complaining here if you must.



And now back to CTF!

[Alien]

i totally agree with you saying too many people like the open-wide maps and like to just zoom over everything where it isn't a problem in enclosed maps

Yes, really thanks for saying this. Now k0jak said that open maps suck (as I said gazillion of times). Because k0jak said that, you finally have professional voice. And stop arguing about changing/adding/replacing CTF and look back at the maps. If the maps won't be easy-push-in, easy-push-out, ctf will work as it WORKS with several good maps available (me slightly kicks c.brutail for not fixing ctctf6). I highlighted k0jak because one argument against was we need professional opinions. So here you got it.

[divVerent]

I totally agree. Only on few open maps, CTF actually works.

These are "multipath" maps like evilspacectf or (mostly) desertcastles, "fasttake" maps like mojo, and "half open" space maps like ame7ctf or what it is called (the map with the jumppad imposters).

On a certain group of these open maps, namely the terrain maps, getting around the map depends much more on movement skill and health stacking than on closed maps, as terrain hinders the normal (bunnyhopping) ways to move, and allows explosive jumping only.

On more closed maps, all this isn't a problem.

If you are a mapper, and you feel you must make an open map, please make sure most of the floors to walk on are planar, so one can bunnyhop his way without having to laser all the time.

The problem we were talking about here is mainly caused by open maps done wrong, and by the CTF capture record feature steering players' actions in a wrong way, shifting their focus from teamplay to speedcapping so the server says they are the best. It probably would be best to remove the CTF capture records feature (it should be no longer needed, now that we have race), but I already see the uproar from the NNs and some few "independent" speedcappers when I do this.

So yes, I cannot have any respect for [-z-] after what he's done to me and to others, e.g. ai. Sorry for me equating [-z-]'s behaviour with NN behaviour, but well, he's the leader, the top ninja, whatever - you can't blame me for seeing him representing the ninjaz.

[Alien]

Why do you need to remove? It can stay. Records make people find and exploit new techniques so that game could be fixed (instant rocket splash jump for those who forgot). The record which is done in maze style map is really worth more than done in greatwall or capturecity. I'm repeating it gazillion+1th time. People are usually clever creatures. If they see that they can rocketjump and score faster, they'll do it. Mappers know physics, know what tricks can be done, so they can easily avoid such things.

"Pseudo" open environments are possible, with skybox limitting people jumping over the mountains, trees, etc or scaling latter to the size, which would require to many laserjumps to reach the top to be practically useful. Instead of modelling small pines or spruces for forest, sequoias would be a better choise for nexuiz and still would look realistically (this is an example).

[divVerent]

The problem with the records is that they educated people to do lone speedruns, instead of trying to do something good for their team. Speedrunners often try 10, 20 times in a sequence, always using the same "fastest" path, and if there is an enemy on it, they fail - and repeat. This is partially the problem [-z-] is now trying to solve in a hostile way.

[Alien]

Speedrunners work on empty maps (because of what you wrote), if you haven't noticed. The most prominent example is francotirador, longshot duo. Successful speedrun cap needs concentration and that nobody would get in your way. Speedcaps in CTF is only the way to cap the flag using already learned movement techniques for that particular map. No new record of old maps I know of was broken in public CTF having players in popular servers.

[divVerent]

Sure, but people don't stop trying when new players come, but use the very same techniques for regular gameplay - which may have less success rate, but more successes per game

[Alien]

Sure. Why should they stop when you can reach the flag the quickest way possible. That's why nobody played quake in WALKING mode and that's why speedruns exist.