CTF

[M_]

People complained before on the GW and FW maps about people with Nex'es and people with machine guns and that the flag carrier never got away (this was without the reduction), however, now people have a new thing to complain about. So instead of actually complaining about the maps now, they turn to the reduction. That's really what's going on here, nothing more.

If maps had problems even before the reduction, do NOT take these maps as examples to take away the reduction. The old problems are still there.

Uh...

This isn't just finding another thing to complain about. This is an introduced problem. There are ways to get out at greatwall -- even though it's a camper friendly map. This introduces the problem that it becomes much less likely that you will escape. The old problems are not just there, they are exacerbated by this change. It needs to not happen.

[Long*Shot]

None of the above.

I suggest another solution: encouraging players to defend and discouraging players from trying to capture flags alone by adequate changes to the scoring systems.
As [-z-] noted before, we should treat the root of the problem, not its symptoms, that is, players own behaviour.

First I would like to make something absolutely clear: there is no one fast FC who can break a good coordinated defence. Even one good player on defence that uses the terrain and a variety of weapons to his advantage can put down any flag carrier. Your movements as a FC are always predicted, there is one place you want to reach and one general direction you would be heading.

I play virtually (literally?) all my games on CTF servers, the public kind. No fuzzy warm cooperation there like on the private servers. Most players, and everyone at some time of the game, are out for the highest personal score. This human weakness is ougt to be manipulated. Perhaps I am wrong or everyone else is blind, but the current scoring system is in need of a change. Give more cookies to players who guard the flag, either by retrieving the flag or killing the flag carrier.

Today it would still be beneficial to a caper to miss 3 caps but score one: 20 > 15.
All you have to do is instill fear into the puny little minds of cappers - take away from them points AND grant the FC hunter a nice fat bonus (today they are score monks, secluded from the higher ranks of their team score chart).

I would like to see a scoring system along this lines:
Flag capture = 20 points.
Flag retrieval = 10 points.
Flag loss = -5 points.

That way a fast capper would think twice before going in to a second run all alone.
Losing 5 personal points + 10 team points( the retrieving team gain is the attacking team loss) is a great enough of a punishment. Can you imagine the reaction of a team if one of its members lost 30 team points cause he was out for a lone-wolf ego boost?
Losing 10 personal points is discouraging on itself.

There could be different models such as FC=20,FR=20 without flag loss, as long as the main product of the scoring system change is to discourage FC from going at it alone and encouraging team defence.

Also, I suggest that end of the match, instead of the meaningless "the winner is X", the best defenders and capers should be crowned.


Regarding the solution of castrating the playability of the game by means of limiting flag carrier speed: its horrible. I have nothing to add here because those who wrote before me made the case clear (IMHO anyway). But what I would like to do is quote the beginning of one of my favorite short stories by Kurt Vonnegut:

"THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General."

[Alien]

And I would object. How many times your team was able to cap last time we played with new speed?
Exactly 1 time. We capped 0 times.

Increasing score for defense is not good as you've already seen that. And it does not make people play as team. And there won't be any teamplay in public CTF ever. Being a long time player you could already realize that. Sorry, if my informality offends you but making players play teams in public is impossible. That's why this question arose. But neither new scoring system, nor speed reduce will make people play in teams.

I don't understand what's wrong with you people. Can't you see that first time player is incapable playing in team even if you force him with score systems or lower speed. You need to play several months, develop some skills in order to be valuable. When you do that, you'll be looking at how to improve your game. This is when team play question arises. Public CTF is just grounds for new players to grow up, not some sort of competition arena where you expect eye for an eye fights.

Look at other FPS'es and you'll see that too.

This poll was made for practically impossible conditions and it's goal is to find which scoring mode is more suitable one as default - IDEALLY. Not that it will work on public. I would rephrase it: which scoring system should be used on CTF tourney.

EDIT: quote is very nice.

[C.Brutail]

I still don't really understand this whole thing about what encourages teamplay the most...
Imho all those, who comment here do know really well, that there's no need to encourage teamplay, because this is a team-based game mode, so it was ment to be played AS A TEAM.
FFS, this is ridiculous! All these ideas like slowing down flag carriers, adding less score for a capture, adding more score for a return makes me feel that Nexuiz is trying to be an idiot safe game, a game that everyone can play well, no matter if he understands the rules or not.
Imho it's not our rules are the bad, but the people who play it. I mean I don't need rules to tell me and my teammates how to play a team game, but I play like I UNDERSTAND what team-play means, and I can assume my team mates understand too.
I totally hate this flag-carrier slowing down idea. FFS again, Nexuiz is a DAMN FAST GAME, WITH PSYSICS THAT SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGE FAAT MOVEMENT!
I don't think that the worst problem is with the rules or the players, but the MAPS. Although they are my "children", and it feels good that Face, and GWR are the most played and loved CTF maps, but they are just not good for Nexuiz, they are too much opened, and they haven't turned out the way they were ment to be.
Where's Controlfactor, Fortress Resurrection (cbctf4), mIKEctf2, tznex03? I rarely see them played.
Anyway, in any case, the flag carrier speed gets reduced in the next version, that'll be the last time I've created a map or played CTF in Nexuiz.

oh, so I've voted: no FC speed reduce, no frags. Simple, classical USE FOR F*CKING MIND CTF

[alpha]

None of the above.
Today it would still be beneficial to a caper to miss 3 caps but score one: 20 > 15.
All you have to do is instill fear into the puny little minds of cappers - take away from them points AND grant the FC hunter a nice fat bonus (today they are score monks, secluded from the higher ranks of their team score chart).

I would like to see a scoring system along this lines:
Flag capture = 20 points.
Flag retrieval = 10 points.
Flag loss = -5 points.

math fail.

given your system, if only 1 cap attempt of 4 succeeds, the score would be:

30 vs 5

why?

defense gets 3 * retrieval = 30
offense gets 1 cap = 20 - 3*(-5) failures = 5

and the epic camping begins.

[Long*Shot]

math fail.

given your system, if only 1 cap attempt of 4 succeeds, the score would be:

30 vs 5

why?

defense gets 3 * retrieval = 30
offense gets 1 cap = 20 - 3*(-5) failures = 5

and the epic camping begins.

Duh, that's the whole point: to encourage the team to attack together and defence together. A smart team (on a balanced game) wouldn't get to the point where they only score 1 out of 4, and if they did, they would be quick to change their strategy.
And if each team played well, cooperating on the defence as well as offence, and still only got 1 out of 4 - then so be it. What it means is that the better team is winning.
But it wouldn't be a dull game, it would be an exacting game when each team gave its best effort.

And alpha, seriously, you are one of those easy get easy go (only) FC and I have seen you multiple times complaining about camping when you faced good close-range defence .

Common, whats next? Misio will be charging forth claiming that ALL suggested changes are bad? Sorry, but some player's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Nexuiz public CTF is broken. I know so many old timers who got sick of it and I barely see them on the servers now. Something has to be done, if you think that what I suggest is a bad idea then please tell us how your idea is better, cause there is no perfect solution.

[ai]

This introduces the problem that it becomes much less likely that you will escape. The old problems are not just there, they are exacerbated by this change. It needs to not happen.

The sole purpose of slowing down the FC is to make it harder to escape. Then using this argument against this is exactly like saying: "Hey don't put in any curry there, it will taste curry!" - "Oi, the whole point of me putting curry in here IS to make it taste like curry."

With other words people are saying: "Hey, don't reduce the boost it will slow down the flag carrier." - "Oi, the whole point of the reduce IS to slow down the flag carrier."
Not a valid argument

Anyway, I think I'm out of this discussion, I've said all mine and if I say any more I will just be repeating myself. You have my stance: Cap only, reduce the FC.

- ai out

[Long*Shot]

And I would object. How many times your team was able to cap last time we played with new speed?
Exactly 1 time. We capped 0 times.

I remember that game. It was slow and dull.
dull, dull, dull. and long.
I didnt see any spectacular team cooperation, what I saw was senseless rushes into the enemy base. The FCs didnt get "punished" for losing flags, so they would keep at it, again and again and again. Until my team "won".

Increasing score for defense is not good as you've already seen that. And it does not make people play as team.

Sorry, I havent seen that, was there a demo that I missed?
I truly would like to see this model, at least on trial.
Its important to note that its not only about more defence points, its about punishing FC for disregarding team play.

And there won't be any teamplay in public CTF ever. Being a long time player you could already realize that.

I disagree, I have played some games with superb teamplay on public CTF. In fact, I would go as far as to say that its enough that you have 2 players who play as a team and the game is done and the winning team known before hand. One player, the one of defence, usually sacrifices his score for the better good of the team. More people would do that if they didnt have to sacrifice anything, if they would actually gain from it.

Can't you see that first time player is incapable playing in team even if you force him with score systems or lower speed.

I accept your position and that is why I think that a new scoring system should be tested. The correctness of your idea is based upon the ratio of new players to veteran players. From my experience on Green's and Lazy Dog CTF servers usually there arent more then 1-2 totally new players on each team. That being said, its enough if even 2-3 players "respect" and consider the new scoring system for a good challenging game to arise.

[terencehill]

I haven't still voted. Basically I don't like this fc slow thing, coz the fc already have the whole enemy team against him, and in this way it's also worse for him to cap.

Instead of slowing fc, I thought to a differnt system.
I guessed this idea: the points given to one player that capture the flag more times will be gradually reduced:

example:
first cap for me: 20 points,
second cap for me: 10 points,
third cap and next ones for me: 5 points.

This system works for each player individually.
Now the points I take for capping are the same that I take for retrieving the flag. It's better that now I defend letting other team mates to cap. Another player of my team can try to capture the flag giving to our team 20 points.

Or I can rather help another player to cap going with him to the to other base, and protecting him while he's escaping with the flag. It's called team attack. Also the boosting tecnique (that I like so much) can be used to give more speed to fc, helping players that can't go very fast.

Other kind of scoring system can be used ofc, 20, 10, 5, 3 why not?.
It should be tried to find the best values. I guess it works to balance games: no more 130 points made by one player, more than half points needed to win, no more unbalnced games will end quickly. And it's also good to envolve all players of the team, good ones and less good ones.

What do u all think about this idea? Can it be better?

PS: the scores at the end of the game can be recalculated to give the "real" points to players. Not an important thing to the system.

lollool

1. go in
2. get flag, gtfo fast
3. blow your shit up near flag. VIRGINS!
4. someone other picks it up and "scores". PROFIT!

TH, don't be a noob, vote #3.

OK.
Then let's do in this way:
first cap for me: 20 points,
I fail capping and another one picks the flag up and cap: 10 points,
second cap for me: 5 points.

Still the same system if u don't lose the flag:
first cap for me: 20 points,
second cap for me: 10 points,
third cap and next ones for me: 5 points.

Now the system is perfect Alpha

[alpha]

And alpha, seriously, you are one of those easy get easy go (only) FC and I have seen you multiple times complaining about camping when you faced good close-range defence .

Funny joke