CTF

[divVerent]

CTF should be CTF, if you dumb down flag carriers you effectively kill CTF, and there would be no point playing this game any more, atleast for me.

Exactly your words. "CTF should be CTF". I couldn't agree more. However, the current game mode is NOT CTF. No matter how much you're trying to tell yourself or how much anybody else are trying to convince themselves. This current game mode we have is NOT CTF, it's Team Deathmatch with flags.

So far you are right. But when making ONLY captures count and not changing anything else, we get CTFADIP: "Capture The Flag Alone (Defending Is Pointless)"

Is that what you want?

Reducing the speed is obviously not an option to turn this "CTFADIP" into real CTF, just look at the vote results. It would end up as a mode nobody wants to play.

Any other idea to turn CTFADIP into CTF?

[M_]

To explain:
2. Frags do not count, everything else does
Flag carrier kill = +1
Flag Pickup = +1
Flag loss by suicide = -1
Flag return = +5
Flag capture = +20

I vote for this for public servers, or something close to this. I'm guessing it would require a lot of testing to find the right points balance.

For pickup/tourney/pro/official/whateveryouwannacallit matches, I'd vote for only caps count. OR something like 10 points per cap, 2 points per returns and nothing else just so that it's not just "attacking attacking attacking etc.". There's no need for a complicated system in serious matches, players should know what they have to do, they're playing to make their team win, individual score is not an issue. Showing frags and such on the scoreboard, even if they don't count, for statistic purposes it is enough.

As for FC slow down, I can't say I have a real opinion. For the most part, I think it could work because it makes it difficult to cap without help from teammates. On the other hand, for anyone having played 4v4 or 5v5 with good players, it is not necessary at all. Good players = good aim, they can nex your face even if you're very fast so you need help from teammates either way. In fact, it would make it nearly impossible to cap. So I guess, yes for public servers but not for real matches.

Nifrek/DiVerent, your brilliance astounds me.

Want to encourage teamplay in ctf? Make all points flag related. Encourages defense, offense, and makes random people want to kill the fc. Just be sure to list how the scoring works on either the scoreboard or server info. Remember, though: if we were playing ctf irl with, say, paintball guns, the only thing that would count would be captures.

As for the slowdown, it might be best to just make it a voteable cvar, and list the command in the server information. That way, the players on a pub who are currently playing could decide what they like best. After a week or two, it would become clear which is preferred.

Also, question: does this affect mortar jumping or rocket boosting? I think the implication is obvious.

[Ed]

I don't see defending being pointless in what you have suggested div. After all if you don't defend, the other team scores and they win. If people aren't going to realise that their own actions affect the outcome of a team game, their team loses and they don't have a high personal.

I think a lot of why we have deathmatch with flags at the moment is that some of the more popular maps like FW and GW are not good CTF maps but work OK for team deathmatch with flags.

There's this unfortunate thing in many games that a map which is popular is often not very good for gameplay. If you ever have a vote and one option is some crappy novelty map, it'll be much more likely to win the vote than a map which offers decent balanced gameplay. Play Trackmania Nations and you will see this time and again. You will also see the reason why we're lucky that Radiant is so hard to configure and use, otherwise anyone with a stupid idea, and no idea what makes good gameplay or good performance produces a million different maps with no reason why anyone other than them or their mates will want to play.

[divVerent]

LOL, then Radiant should have been so hard to use that M****USA can't install it well, maybe if he learns how to do Assault maps, it helps everyone.

And the problem is that if CTF scoring is based on caps only AND the current flag carrier speed is kept, there will be not much point of teamplay. Camping helps, and going into the enemy base alone and trying to get the flag alone helps, but stuff like going together with the flag carrier will not help much (the attacker ALREADY has good chances alone, and by going with him your team loses a defender). That is why it is CTFA then - Capture The Flag Alone. And CTFA is not a game mode I want to play - if I want to run alone as fast as possible, I can now play Race.

[ai]

There are many people who wants cap only, some I've met online and shared their opinion and some that has already voted. I don't believe for a second that people will only attack, more than they actually do already. Many times I play public is there hardly isn't any defense at all, and when I see that I jump right into the enemys base and grab the flag.
If people will stop defend less because it's cap only system, then there would have to be no defenders at all the entire game. Somehow I doubt that will happen.

I don't even think anything will happen outside what already hasn't been experienced in a game. I see people throwing themselves on the flag whether they can escape or not (affectively giving 5 points to the other team), I see people roaming around like crazy chickens. If this is already taking place, how much of cap only system will break the current players tradition?

O for one would still defend, I don't have about points, I care to do my team good.

[divVerent]

I don't even think anything will happen outside what already hasn't been experienced in a game. I see people throwing themselves on the flag whether they can escape or not (affectively giving 5 points to the other team), I see people roaming around like crazy chickens. If this is already taking place, how much of cap only system will break the current players tradition?

Well, as there is no PENALTY for just capping alone, I will do that too, because it would be the best for my team (when the player count is high, so losing a defender does not cost that much).

[ai]

Trust me, if people throw themselves on flags time after time without being able to cap they get frustrated so eventually they will stop (of course not all). However, who says there should be a penalty for dropping the flag anyway? Dying and losing all your weapons, health and armor is penalty enough.

But if people ALREADY are throwing themselves on the flags giving away free points, I don't think it will hurt even if it is cap only. They will never stop throwing themselves on the flags (cap only or no cap only), even if the penalty was 100 points to the other team. You can try that and you will see. Most cappers don't even care about the penalty, they care about capping and it will always be like that.

I think all you guys are looking into this waay to much. You are all thinking too much. If we do this and that people will act like this. If thousands other games had this system, why can't Nexuiz? Just because it's fast? Come on, give me a better reason than that.

[divVerent]

ai: try reading what I wrote.

Currently: if I throw myself at the flag all the time, I need more than 28.5% success rate to even help my team score at all.

Caps only: even 1% success rate gains enough to justify it.

See the problem? It emphasizes the "kamikaze capturing" problem that can then only be fixed by designing maps to have stronger defense (like hydronex).

[SavageX]

Loosing all weapons and respawning is not punishment enough for kamikaze flag-grabbing - after all getting fragged *is* a normal part of the game and as such isn't recognizable as a specific penalty.

[divVerent]

And even though the shotgun is weak, it is not totally useless, and one can often cap without any weapon at ALL, by simply outrunning the defenders. They get their chance ONCE - when you are in their base. If you manage to leave it, you have won.