CTF scoring system & gameplay

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CTF scoring system & gameplay

Postby Alien » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:56 pm

Because Z wants to change current scoring system and bits of gameplay and I object some of those changes and do not want to argue with him again, which leads to personal attacks, I decided to post how I think the CTF scorring system should be if we keep the points count thing.

Z wanted to punish players for pickuping the flag. This punish is wrong, because the pickup action is RIGHT action in itself, but LOSING the flag is bad.

So instead of giving -2 for pickup, I suggest to give +1 for it, but reduce your score by -2 when you DROP (not necessarily lose) it. The drop would happen whether you suicide or killed by enemy or teammate. If you're killed by teammate -2 is "awarded" for him instead of you in order to prevent teamkilling. This will also prevent racking up score (eg, killing yourself and picking flag again) and will also limit the frequency of suicides to replenish health. In all previous cases you'll get -1 for these actions.

Killing enemy fc is good thing, even you are camping. To reduce campers and make people roam instead, I suppose these scoring changes:

+1 for killing enemy fc
+5 for returning
+1 if the killer and returner is the same person (so in sum +6)

Team will get more advantage if the same person who killed the fc, returns the flag and it might prevent other people from running and grabbing the flag first. Usually these people just get a lot of points without doing the real job. You might ask why it would reduce camping? You see, when you camp on the tower, it's hard to reach the flag in time, so if you want more points, you should at least fight in the battlefield. Rather naive, but might be little incentive to fight. Of course, additional graphical features (icons, shouts, prints) as in q3, ut would help a lot to move players into combat.

Ok, now back to the value of capping. The golden ratio is 1:3,5 to keep scores going up and not letting defense to win the game by defending. Practice shows that it shouldn;t be lower. (Currently 6:21, where 6 = 1 for killing fc and 5 for returning and 21 = 1 for pickup and 20 for cap).
In my system cap score should be 30. Defenders will get 2+1+5(+ possible 1) so their score would be in [8;9] interval. So attackers score should be in [27;31,5]. Because we play CAPTURE the flag and not DEFEND the flag, i suppose score should give small advantage to the attackers.

To summarize:
+1 for pickup (does not matter if you picked it at enemy base or in the "world")
-2 for drop (does not matter how you died)
+1 for kill
+5 (+1) for return
and +30 for return which should compensate -2 easily :)

Now some of you might notice, that there is disadvantage in picking up flag and dying then from some camper attack. I don't like this part but thinking from the other point of view, you should wait for the stocked up teammate to take it and do not allow an enemy to return it. If you have lots of health and armour, of course feel free to take it. But if you are low on health try to kill approaching enemy defenders/campers and let your friend escape even if you die from angry enemies. Frags do not mean anything so don't worry about your death, the goal is to make your fc safe and NOT to stay alive during whole game (this is not ctftdm). Of course, staying alive whole game and racking up points definitely shows your skill. Assist (like in q3) and other similar things might be implemented to show what you've achieved during the game even your points are not very impressive.

Now about several other suggestions which were posted in #alientrap channel:

1) Wait
You get points for keeping flag not returned for some predefined amount of time and returning it at the last second.
Conclusion: wrong. Could be easily exploitable by killing enemy fc at your base and and waiting on your own will to rack up points knowing that enemy won't be able to retake the flag again in that time. It means nexuiz would turn into sneaky game where you should wait for enemy to pickup the flag, nexing him, waiting again without returning, nexing, waiting again, nexing again (in that time you get points).

2) Wave respawn
Not all maps were made for this and some of them could be exploited my mass rocketing, electro spamming at predefined time at known spawn places. If mappers could provide us with better maps, I don't see anything wrong with it even in public ctf if we keep time difference between waves rather small (3-5). This could be just another server set up option.

3) Predefined amount of life
This would suck for new players. You will lose all your lifes in 6 minutes and you'll be able to spectate only for the remaining ones. This would make Nexuiz unattractive for most of new players and will definitely mean slow death. Another thing, at which I agree to div, is that waiting makes people aggressive. I come from the country where cs is some sort of mania and I know that he is right. Impatience makes people swear, laugh from others, comment on various things and makes gameplay annoying if some 10 years old boy all the time calls you dick/gay))/fucking pig because he can't to play. Personally, I left cs and liked nexuiz because of it's adult community and game ethics (not yet another : woo l4m3, u suck, bitch, cheater, he has an aimbot game).

Congrats to the community for this achievement.

In overall, I think that freedom to choose is the most important, so div0 should leave all options intact and leave server admins ability to choose what they want. So all complaints about server should go to server admins and not to div directly. He gave you the freedom, it's in your responsibility to use it wisely (in other words). Greets to him for his great work on Nexuiz and not letting down because of our anoyance.
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Postby [-z-] » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:32 pm

I like how in your first sentence, you flame me. Far be it me to call you a hypocrite. Great way to get people to listen to your opinions.

Anyway... you're missing the point of the negative base pickup. The negative merely acts a deposit because holding the flag is a liability. This increases the risk which leads to a better field spread.

Some quick notes from this morning's conversation with divVerent I haven't had time to format and explain completely:

The numbers aren't perfect but the general idea is there:

base_flag_pickup -5
This acts as a deposit because the flag carrier assumes a risk. This is to discourage players from repeatedly grabbing the flag and dying.

world_flag_pickup +1 for every 3 seconds the flag is down
This is to protect against a camper situation, if a sniper were to kill a flag carrier and his teammate picked it up, if this was a set number like 5, it would negate the sniper's earnings.

carrier_kill 5
Because this deserves a reward

flag_drop -5
Because this deserves a punishment

flag_return 3
This deserves a reward, but not as much as the kill. The most a player can get for a fc kill/return would then be 8.

flag_cap 30
To compensate for the deposit, fc gets 25 points.


Match time 12 minutes
I believe 20 minutes is too long. 10 minutes feels just a little too short. The 2 minutes after the 10 minute mark I believe gives players that added incentive of an obvious 2 minute window to player hard and fast.

score to win 7 caps
This may need altering but I think this feels about right for most maps.
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Postby ai » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:45 pm

Any point system I am totally against (thus haven't even bothered to read too much of either posts). It's cap or no cap that should count only. Points, if they would to exist should be in a different mode not called CTF. So PLEASE consider a different mode and do NOT call it CTF if you're using any other system than caps only. That's just all I ask from you.
Last edited by ai on Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby [-z-] » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:46 pm

ai wrote:Any point system I am totally against (thus haven't even bothered to read too much of either posts). It's cap or no cap that should count only. Points, if they would to exist should be in a different mode not called CTF.

It's painfully obvious you didn't read my post.

The only reason I'm so bent on including points is to give incentive to players to play other positions. It's a secondary system though, used for self assessment and tie breakers.
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Postby ai » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:48 pm

I actually did read the most of it except the last few things. And I'm still against the point system. I also don't see anything wrong with draws/ties.
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Postby Alien » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:51 pm

[-z-] wrote:I like how in your first sentence, you flame me. Far be it me to call you a hypocrite. Great way to get people to listen to your opinions.


Where is the actual flame?
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Postby divVerent » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:52 am

ai wrote:Any point system I am totally against (thus haven't even bothered to read too much of either posts). It's cap or no cap that should count only. Points, if they would to exist should be in a different mode not called CTF. So PLEASE consider a different mode and do NOT call it CTF if you're using any other system than caps only. That's just all I ask from you.


Wirthout such a point system, Nexuiz CTF cannot work.

Flag carrier speed reduction appears to be out, given that 2/3 of the voters reject it.

Without flag carrier speed reduction, caps-only CTF is merely running into base, and rushing out. If you fail, who cares, you have nothing to lose. That is exactly what is NOT supposed to happen in CTF, and also what is not happening in e.g. UT CTF - simply because the players are slower in UT.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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Postby divVerent » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:30 am

[-z-] wrote:
ai wrote:Any point system I am totally against (thus haven't even bothered to read too much of either posts). It's cap or no cap that should count only. Points, if they would to exist should be in a different mode not called CTF.

It's painfully obvious you didn't read my post.

The only reason I'm so bent on including points is to give incentive to players to play other positions. It's a secondary system though, used for self assessment and tie breakers.


Just for tie breakers? That means, it never really decides the game. So the main problems are not even ADDRESSED by it, i.e. that brute force lone runs should not be rewarded for the team that much.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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Postby divVerent » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:47 am

Added the CTF scoring systems to svn.

Old system:
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... iew=markup

Suggestions:
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... iew=markup
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... iew=markup
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... iew=markup

And I still find [-z-]'s system very bad, as it rewards waiting before picking up the flag again. How weird is that. The other aspects... maybe, but IMHO it gives too many points to defenders. Your team loses 18 points to the enemy when they fail to capture, but only win 25 points if they succeed. That means defending your flag successfully a single time is worth almost as much as a capture... which is quite odd.

And using a scoring system just for tie breakers is a bad idea too - it means the team is still rewarded for going in to the enemy base alone, and not punished at all for failed capture attempts. So as a "team thinker", you have nothing to lose and should just rush in without thinking about consequences.
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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Postby Alien » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:32 am

divVerent wrote:
ai wrote:Any point system I am totally against (thus haven't even bothered to read too much of either posts). It's cap or no cap that should count only. Points, if they would to exist should be in a different mode not called CTF. So PLEASE consider a different mode and do NOT call it CTF if you're using any other system than caps only. That's just all I ask from you.


Wirthout such a point system, Nexuiz CTF cannot work.

Flag carrier speed reduction appears to be out, given that 2/3 of the voters reject it.

Without flag carrier speed reduction, caps-only CTF is merely running into base, and rushing out. If you fail, who cares, you have nothing to lose. That is exactly what is NOT supposed to happen in CTF, and also what is not happening in e.g. UT CTF - simply because the players are slower in UT.


But this is happening in q3. :) Speed is retained and most people attack. There is no team play except when you play with known people (situation is similar to current situation of nexuiz, except it's caps only system).



Anyway, I posted this not to decide/persuade div0 which system should be implemented (caps-only/not-only-caps). I posted this as a possible scoring system for not-only-caps system. Because caps-only system is obvious in itself, I didn't write how scoring system should be made. II still hope there would be 2 systems implemented like:
g_ctf_speed
g_ctf_oldschool

So please read before commenting offtopic.
Last edited by Alien on Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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