Nexuiz & CPMA Movement ?

[nifrek]

We were talking about this on irc just now.

Here's how I see it.

I played qw for a few years then took a few years break. Then I tried nexuiz. I felt that the movement was horrible and unresponsive and I gave up after a couple weeks. I mean, I liked it and it was fun but I didn't see how one could play this game seriously because of the movement. Then a couple months later I decided to give a try again, met some cool people and kept playing. Eventually, I got better with Nexuiz movement and I realized that the physics/movement didn't suck, it was me that sucked at it. I've (only) been playing for 1.5 years I think and I still don't feel that comfortable with the physics, but I still make progress every time I play and I find them amazing and complex now. Just like someone who never played a fps game playing cpma for the first time would feel like they can't move well, it takes a long time to learn.

Basically, what I am saying is that I understand how new players coming from other games feel when they try Nexuiz. I did the same thing you did when I started playing, I asked around about making changes to the physics so that they would be more like the game I used to play and there is nothing wrong with that. And at least you did it in a diplomatic way compared to a lot of other players trying out Nexuiz. Obviously, the learning curve would be easier since most fast paced fps games (ie: qw/cpma/wsw) have a similar movement system and I can see how it would make sense that Nexuiz use that system too. But honestly, since I still make progress with movement, that I still find ways to accelerate faster (without using weapons), turn corners tighter, etc. every time I play after more than a year that means nexuiz movement is very complex and hard to master. Hell, everyone seems to progress a lot these days, I remember when I started playing I think there was like 1 or 2 players that I knew of that would let go of +forward when bunnyhopping and now everyone is learning how to move that way and combining it with regular bunnyhopping to not slow down as much as possible. You discover a lot of details about the physics, the right angles, the friction, the speed at which you need to turn you mouse, everything. I find all of this very exciting. Nowadays it feels like I move a lot like I did in qw, the angles and air control are different but it's very similar in a lot of ways.

So I find it kind of sad when someone comes to a server and says "this game is stupid, why is it not like that-other-game" and then leaves. So I appreciate your approach to suggest this. Personally I would like it to have it as an option in Nexuiz. I do not know if I would use cpma physics, but I'm all of more options.

[divVerent]

Well, why do people always demand "CPMA physics" like this, but never can explain what it actually IS?

I'd certainly not set it as default, as every small physics change upsets the community a lot, but as an extra .cfg file - why not?

[jal]

well, one could circumvent the problem of being "punished" by the warsow community: simply checking out the source code (without talking to devs), and see which parts of the physics are good...

Ye, if we do it quickie and sneakie the wsw devs won't notice

It doesn't matter, mate. Nexuiz, and any other, is on its right to take whatever you want from wsw source. And you will never see the wsw team any other but happy about it. divVerent wasn't refering to the team, but to the players.

Whenever a Nexuiz version is announced on any website, all the warsow trolls come and post 500 comments about how much Nexuiz sucks and Warsow is better.

Doesn't happen the other way round...

I'm sorry, but I think I know what cases you are refering to, and I have to disagree. It's true that I've seen sites news about nexuiz where wsw players jump in and comment they think wsw is better, but it was never a case of them having anything against Nexuiz. You can do a search for Nexuiz at wsw forum and I'm sure you won't find any Nexuiz hate in there. In fact, when new versions of Nexuiz are anounced at sites like ESR most of the people "defending" Nex are the Warsow players who frequent the site. There's people like esteel who knows about that.

Also, you shouldn't see the wsw players as being too attatched to Warsow itself (of course there is a good bunch), but to the bunnyhopping+fastweapons kind of game. In a good proportion their loyalty to the game itself is almost unexistant and they will just defend anything with those physics and weapons. If Nexuiz had them they wouldn't care where they came from.

That being said, I'd think it twice before choosing that path. Those guys take over too easily and you'd may end up having a comunity just like Warsow one.

IMO, nifrek's post contains the right answer.

[divVerent]

Indeed, it's not the wsw deveopers that do the trolling...

and yes, it's also the kind of people I'd rather not have in Nexuiz. Unfortunately, since the end of last year, the number of these people seems to be rapidly increasing in Nexuiz, while the total player count stays about the same.

Or rather, the unfriendly, harsh, arrogant demanding people are driving away the regulars who just want to enjoy the game.

BTW, for this bunch of players, there is "Nexuiz Havoc", previously called Pro, which is included with Nexuiz. It offers vanilla Q3 player physics, and fast weapon switching, and generally is aimed at the "progamer" crowd. If someone told me what CPMA physics actually ARE, I'd happily implement them in Nexuiz and talk to LordHavoc about setting them as default in Nexuiz Havoc.

I asked the CPMA contact, but I don't think they'll give that info out, given that forum posts there about it were left unanswered, and the FAQ says that source code will not be given out.

[esteel]

well, one could circumvent the problem of being "punished" by the warsow community: simply checking out the source code (without talking to devs), and see which parts of the physics are good...

Ye, if we do it quickie and sneakie the wsw devs won't notice

It doesn't matter, mate. Nexuiz, and any other, is on its right to take whatever you want from wsw source. And you will never see the wsw team any other but happy about it. divVerent wasn't refering to the team, but to the players.

IMO, nifrek's post contains the right answer.

Well i think Green was joking.. on the other hand, i'm not even sure if the physics part are freely available. I know the WSW devs use a closed repository for the game and i do not think the physics are part of the engine..

And i too think Nifrek is right.. The Nexuiz physics offer a great deal of depth but requires people to relearn it. Is that really a bad thing? The answer is: it depends on the people. A lot of people are unwilling to change their own ways. But live would be very boring if everything would be the same. Having an OPTION for cpma like physics would be ok but not as default. As default for Havoc? Maybe.. thats different from Nexuiz in a lot of aspects already and maybe that will help havoc getting enjoyed more. But again, someone interested in CPMA physics would have to dig out their settings and maybe even parts of the code.

[jal]

Of course it's feely available. Warsow code is as GPL as any other GPL source you can think of. The sources are always available with every binary distribution. How does one keep his repository between binary distributions has nothing to do with GPL, and we don't keep it closed for any secrecy intention, but just to keep Warsow versions consistent.

[tZork]

I like the fact that nexuiz movement are not a carbon copy (or a few put in a blender) of oer popular game/s. Even if its a option, there is a risk of it taking over just because some ppl are used it and cant be bugged to learn something new if this option is there.

Also, for me and other ppl who never used "Promode" - can anyone explain what it is, how its different and why it would be better (if you are abt say something like 'cuz gameXYZ does it that way' to the last point, don't.)

[GreEn`mArine]

if just one person could be arsed to create a GOOD tutorial about nexuiz's movement: like ... doing jumps in slowmo, enable cl_showpressedkeys, explain when to let which button go, etc .... put that on the homepage .... would flatten the learning curve for new players, I think.

And about my post above: yes I was joking about doing things secretly. I am aware that the wsw devs are not the problem here, maybe just the wsw players are, no idea. The point was that when Nexuiz's release log would contain just an info like "added optional CPMA-like physics" I don't think that many warsow players would complain, but for this it would have to be made sure that not many wsw players know that code was taken from their base. I mean, it could have been taken from anywhere else, or re-invented.

[divVerent]

Warsow seems to have much more than just CPMA-like physics, e.g. it also has an extra "dash" button for movement, and walljumping.

I don't really think the movement will be fun without these extras.

Also, the code for it is quite weird, and doesn't have much in common with Q3A's or Nexuiz's.

I'd better avoid adding that code, and first wait for the reply from the CPMA team...

[jal]

That code is indeed weird. And each time I make the code have some sense I hit some unexpected side effect and get a load of player whine