Balancing changes, Guided missiles, Weapon balance tests

[Flying Steel]

Okay, these are my first impressions of your balance, Samual. I should say though that I haven't played much Nexuiz while waiting for 2.5.3 and so my skills have atrophied; I might have to change some of my suggestions after I've tried it when I'm back in the zone.

Overall: I see that you have brought all the weapons' firepower down by like a third or so, just like in 2.6 balance. I'm curious what the intention behind this is, because I thought it was only for 2.6's new health/armor system. I think that with 2.5 or 2.6 health/armor, either way is about the same, so you should only lower the weapon effectiveness if your intention is to make individual fights last longer, dodging be more effective and important and escapes by losing combatants or flag carriers easier.

Laser: Love the faster laser shot, but prefer a 30 damage shot to make 4-hit kills something you could better count on.

SG: Moar pellets. They can do less damage to compensate, but it just looks better to have more pellets in the air. And only 6 pellets coming out of a shotgun in also unrealistic. I would also make it do 65 damage, whereas yours does 60 and the 2.5.2 does 72 or so. And make it run out of ammo (give it less starting ammo and ammo per ammo pickup)!

MG: I like the higher ammo consumption but it looks like you've also made it significantly less powerful versus the 2.5.3 MG for some reason. Do you think the 2.5.3 MG is overpowered still?

GL: This seems like a step back, both because the GL is so good as it currently and because this seems to make it less effective versus the Electro. Secondary spam isn't really a problem with this weapon either, most folks prefer the Electro secondary when they want to flood a room with splash spam. The only GL secondary that could really improve on the current is a BFG (Big Fucking Grenade) that is coded to not blow up on contact with a player, only when its timer goes off or once it has lost alot of hitpoints. Something to toss around corners like you do with grenades in alot of games, which would be a very, very cool secondary for the GL.

Electro: Bravo! Secondary with that fast three shot burst makes this weapon make sense with the fast paced-ness of Nexuiz finally.

Crylink: Maybe give it a little more spread, like 0.02, but this is good. I really like the secondary, that's alot of fun because the shots fire so fast but travel so slowly. Something like this would also make an excellent flamer-thrower style primary attack for the Fireball, in place of its current crappy primary.

Nex: Cool, maybe it is finally balanced with these settings.

Hagar: I'm not real fond of what you did with this, because the Hagar suffers a lot from its slow shot speed combined with really high ammo consumption. Lower its damage and increase its spread, but increase its speed to 4000 or at the very least don't reduce its speed at all past 3000. I definitely recommend balancing its other stats around a 4000 shot speed though, otherwise it turns into an underpowered-ly brief burst of spam-fest. Also don't reduce its edge damage to zero- this makes it too much like a Cell weapon which 'burns' you with splash damage a little instead of kicking your ass to the ceiling like all the explosive weapons currently do (basically they all have splash with edge damage, all ion weapons have splash with no edge damage, kind of an unspoken rule).

RL: It shouldn't do any less damage than the Nex. And instead of reducing its blast radius, it would make it less spammy and make it make more sense as a rocket launcher if you focused on increasing its refire time. I think you might have found a real sweet spot on the speed though and the rocket acceleration is a great improvement for this weapon!

HLAC: I think this weapon deserves more credit than it gets. The spread growth balances its power with more versatility than some weapons. Because you can use short burst for distances and full auto for close in fighting.

Rifle: I would recommend not abandoning the headshot advantage feature, because it adds some skill factor to sniping, whereas the Nex was just easy point and vaporize. Maybe make headshots do 75 damage.


Physics: This is slightly OT, but your server has like no friction; I was having Battlezone 2 flashbacks. This is probably a lot of fun on open terrain maps but on cramped or space maps it can take the attention off of the weapons a bit. Of course being inebriated doesn't help me either, maybe I'll give it another shot (heh) tomorrow if I'm more sober.

[Samual]

Overall: I see that you have brought all the weapons' firepower down by like a third or so, just like in 2.6 balance. I'm curious what the intention behind this is, because I thought it was only for 2.6's new health/armor system. I think that with 2.5 or 2.6 health/armor, either way is about the same, so you should only lower the weapon effectiveness if your intention is to make individual fights last longer, dodging be more effective and important and escapes by losing combatants or flag carriers easier.

Umm, no? I didn't lower the damage by a third -- it's just very very different (Although I did lower it slightly, but this is explained later). I can still kill just as quickly (faster in fact) as with 2.5.3 balance. But well, yes, 2.6 balance lowers it a lot aswell. --- By the way, I should take this time to point out that my players have less health, as in I have lowered maximum health/armor and changed regen and etc.

Laser: Love the faster laser shot, but prefer a 30 damage shot to make 4-hit kills something you could better count on.

No, my point was to make it more useful as a laser with low damage so you can use it more often, and even so: You can still use it in a shotgun/laser combo.

SG: Moar pellets. They can do less damage to compensate, but it just looks better to have more pellets in the air. And only 6 pellets coming out of a shotgun in also unrealistic. I would also make it do 65 damage, whereas yours does 60 and the 2.5.2 does 72 or so. And make it run out of ammo (give it less starting ammo and ammo per ammo pickup)!

About the spread: I know, I want it to spread more while maintaining good damage.. I'm waiting for div0s changes to spread so I can make this work properly.

MG: I like the higher ammo consumption but it looks like you've also made it significantly less powerful versus the 2.5.3 MG for some reason. Do you think the 2.5.3 MG is overpowered still?

It's not higher ammo consumption, I made pickups for it give much more ammo.. And it's less powerful because it's more balanced this way with a higher refire rate. I think it's fine because it's still a very affective weapon, but i'll try raising the damage a little on my server to see how it is.

GL: This seems like a step back, both because the GL is so good as it currently and because this seems to make it less effective versus the Electro. Secondary spam isn't really a problem with this weapon either, most folks prefer the Electro secondary when they want to flood a room with splash spam. The only GL secondary that could really improve on the current is a BFG (Big Fucking Grenade) that is coded to not blow up on contact with a player, only when its timer goes off or once it has lost alot of hitpoints. Something to toss around corners like you do with grenades in alot of games, which would be a very, very cool secondary for the GL.

Less affective? Not really, it's probably the most powerful weapon in my balance (Statistics say that at least, closely followed by other weapons though). But well, I changed the arc in correlation with disabling the affects of newton projectiles.. I think this arc is better anyway, it allows for longer range shots and more accurate shots all in all.

Electro: Bravo! Secondary with that fast three shot burst makes this weapon make sense with the fast paced-ness of Nexuiz finally.

That's... what EVERYONE says , so.. Yay.

Crylink: Maybe give it a little more spread, like 0.02, but this is good. I really like the secondary, that's alot of fun because the shots fire so fast but travel so slowly. Something like this would also make an excellent flamer-thrower style primary attack for the Fireball, in place of its current crappy primary.

No, the point of lowering the spread and edgedamage was to make it more of a weapon that requires aim and less of a spammy weapon. But well, I actually made my own fireball code which I haven't committed yet which performs much better imo, i'll probably post a diff and explanation later.

Nex: Cool, maybe it is finally balanced with these settings.

Statistics say yes

Hagar: I'm not real fond of what you did with this, because the Hagar suffers a lot from its slow shot speed combined with really high ammo consumption. Lower its damage and increase its spread, but increase its speed to 4000 or at the very least don't reduce its speed at all past 3000. I definitely recommend balancing its other stats around a 4000 shot speed though, otherwise it turns into an underpowered-ly brief burst of spam-fest. Also don't reduce its edge damage to zero- this makes it too much like a Cell weapon which 'burns' you with splash damage a little instead of kicking your ass to the ceiling like all the explosive weapons currently do (basically they all have splash with edge damage, all ion weapons have splash with no edge damage, kind of an unspoken rule).

It's a medium to short range weapon, the spread correlating with higher damage is on purpose. And the shot speed must remain the same, else it's too similar to the Crylink. But, yes the edge damage was an accident -- I forgot to increase that, will do today.

RL: It shouldn't do any less damage than the Nex. And instead of reducing its blast radius, it would make it less spammy and make it make more sense as a rocket launcher if you focused on increasing its refire time. I think you might have found a real sweet spot on the speed though and the rocket acceleration is a great improvement for this weapon!

I think it SHOULD do less damage than a condensed plasma beam... But well, this was also to balance its speed and guiderate. And, it DOES make more sense as a rocket launcher as I really worked on making it what it should be to be realistic. (Higher refire time, etc etc) -- The radius is reduced to stop it from being overpowered and to stop it from being too similar to the mortar.. btw, the mortar has a bigger radius than rl.

HLAC: I think this weapon deserves more credit than it gets. The spread growth balances its power with more versatility than some weapons. Because you can use short burst for distances and full auto for close in fighting.

I just don't like this weapon with my balance, it either: doesn't fit (Too odd) or: fits too well (It mimics other weapons).. So for now, it's disabled.. I was thinking about doing entirely new functionality on it though, so we'll see what I can code later.

Rifle: I would recommend not abandoning the headshot advantage feature, because it adds some skill factor to sniping, whereas the Nex was just easy point and vaporize. Maybe make headshots do 75 damage.

It's too easy to get headshots imo, they should have no advantage because Nexuiz has armor.. But well, i'll try them with an advantage of 20 later and test it.

Physics: This is slightly OT, but your server has like no friction; I was having Battlezone 2 flashbacks. This is probably a lot of fun on open terrain maps but on cramped or space maps it can take the attention off of the weapons a bit. Of course being inebriated doesn't help me either, maybe I'll give it another shot (heh) tomorrow if I'm more sober.

Physics are separate from my balance.. just as my balance is separate from my physics. Basically, there was no point in commenting there But well, yes I was going for faster movement in a way that isn't extremely fast.. Best option was a nanl-ish type config, I based it off of 2.3 physics and went from there.


Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion on this and pointing out some things I missed.. I should have time to do them tonight, so.

[Flying Steel]

But well, yes, 2.6 balance lowers it a lot aswell. --- By the way, I should take this time to point out that my players have less health, as in I have lowered maximum health/armor and changed regen and etc.

The issue though is that player starting health hasn't changed any, so when there are more players playing there is not enough to go around for folks to stack anyway, so max health doesn't really matter. On larger maps or low health maps it also doesn't matter very much, because there was always rot that unstacked you unless you were constantly picking up supplies. In these situations (which are really common at least in CTF) the weapons in 2.6 and your balance really are less powerful and it takes longer to kill folks.

No, my point was to make it more useful as a laser with low damage so you can use it more often, and even so: You can still use it in a shotgun/laser combo.

That's probably fine, but if it did 30 or 35 damage, it'd be more fun to use overall and probably wouldn't be imbalancing, IMO. Plus making it more useful for jumps like this might imbalance CTF games more, because the FC just has to laser out of there, while the defenders have to laser after him AND shoot at him, which might be a delicate balance.

It's not higher ammo consumption, I made pickups for it give much more ammo.. And it's less powerful because it's more balanced this way with a higher refire rate. I think it's fine because it's still a very affective weapon, but i'll try raising the damage a little on my server to see how it is.

Well I think myself and others wouldn't really mind a more ammo consuming MG just to balance its ammo usage with the other weapons more.

But if you think 2.5.3's MG is balanced, just try to keep the same DPS with it when you modify the refire and damage is all I meant. Because it looked like you lowered its damage more than you increased its refire, which would mean lower DPS.

Less affective? Not really, it's probably the most powerful weapon in my balance (Statistics say that at least, closely followed by other weapons though). But well, I changed the arc in correlation with disabling the affects of newton projectiles.. I think this arc is better anyway, it allows for longer range shots and more accurate shots all in all.

Well yours and the 2.6 balance seems to decrease the damage of direct GL hits while preserving or relatively increasing edge damage so that the weapon becomes less effective as a skill weapon and rewards spamming more. Basically the current GL rewards someone who has the skill to compensate for its lowish speed, lowish refire and arc that makes you take into account range, by offering more damage for direct hits, versus your GL or the 2.6 GL.

But well, I actually made my own fireball code which I haven't committed yet which performs much better imo, i'll probably post a diff and explanation later.

If you changed the primary attack on the fireball, then I can't wait.

It's a medium to short range weapon, the spread correlating with higher damage is on purpose. And the shot speed must remain the same, else it's too similar to the Crylink. But, yes the edge damage was an accident -- I forgot to increase that, will do today.

The thing though is that the hagar doesn't work real well in close because the shots are so slow that you have to lead a lot to hit someone even at close range, which feels really weird for CQC and doesn't mesh well with its extreme ammo consumption.

I think it SHOULD do less damage than a condensed plasma beam... But well, this was also to balance its speed and guiderate. And, it DOES make more sense as a rocket launcher as I really worked on making it what it should be to be realistic. (Higher refire time, etc etc) -- The radius is reduced to stop it from being overpowered and to stop it from being too similar to the mortar.. btw, the mortar has a bigger radius than rl.

It seems like maybe the most intuitive and sensible places to draw the line between the RL and GL could be in refire versus damage and guidance versus speed. The GL shoots faster traveling shots faster and the RL shoots fewer and slower but more damaging guided shots. I haven't studied the real world modern versions of these weapons, but that's how I would imagine them to be.

I think the GL having more blast radius than the RL would be more realistic though, so I agree on that one.

It's too easy to get headshots imo, they should have no advantage because Nexuiz has armor.. But well, i'll try them with an advantage of 20 later and test it.

Well its your call, it would certainly be easier for us content creators in the future to not have to worry about having heads in the right place for headshots.

But the idea is headshots are still harder to make than anywhere shots, so for hitscan weapons with no spread, balancing the damage in favor of headshots being more of a necessity adds some skill factor to weapons that otherwise might be too easy for someone with average to better coordination, reflexes and experience.

Physics are separate from my balance.. just as my balance is separate from my physics. Basically, there was no point in commenting there But well, yes I was going for faster movement in a way that isn't extremely fast.. Best option was a nanl-ish type config, I based it off of 2.3 physics and went from there.

To be honest you physics are kind of fun, they just make testing your weapon balance on your server less scientific is all I meant.

Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion on this and pointing out some things I missed.. I should have time to do them tonight, so.

You're very welcome and thanks for listening and working to create something better than the dead end 2.6 balance.

[Samual]

Erm, no offense, but you show no understanding of most the concepts in my balance..... heh..

The issue though is that player starting health hasn't changed any, so when there are more players playing there is not enough to go around for folks to stack anyway, so max health doesn't really matter. On larger maps or low health maps it also doesn't matter very much, because there was always rot that unstacked you unless you were constantly picking up supplies. In these situations (which are really common at least in CTF) the weapons in 2.6 and your balance really are less powerful and it takes longer to kill folks.

Yes, the starting health ACTUALLY HAS CHANGED... -- My server was just using warm up at the moment as I was having fun, not testing anything. -- It's fine.

That's probably fine, but if it did 30 or 35 damage, it'd be more fun to use overall and probably wouldn't be imbalancing, IMO. Plus making it more useful for jumps like this might imbalance CTF games more, because the FC just has to laser out of there, while the defenders have to laser after him AND shoot at him, which might be a delicate balance.

No, with disabling sv_gameplayfix_delayprojectiles the laser force nerfed slightly. We have a delay on firing it, but the affective force is still lower than before. This is the other reason I lowered the damage (But didn't raise force, as raising force is overkill).

But if you think 2.5.3's MG is balanced, just try to keep the same DPS with it when you modify the refire and damage is all I meant. Because it looked like you lowered its damage more than you increased its refire, which would mean lower DPS.

I DON'T think the 2.5.3 uzi is balanced. And even if I did, just because it's balanced in one context doesn't mean it is in all contexts.

Well yours and the 2.6 balance seems to decrease the damage of direct GL hits while preserving or relatively increasing edge damage so that the weapon becomes less effective as a skill weapon and rewards spamming more. Basically the current GL rewards someone who has the skill to compensate for its lowish speed, lowish refire and arc that makes you take into account range, by offering more damage for direct hits, versus your GL or the 2.6 GL.

This is a total misunderstanding of the mortar :X -- Sorry, but no, my balance does not do this... And even so, I don't believe the 2.6 balance does either.

The thing though is that the hagar doesn't work real well in close because the shots are so slow that you have to lead a lot to hit someone even at close range, which feels really weird for CQC and doesn't mesh well with its extreme ammo consumption.

You're supposed to lead, it's about aim.......... All aim isn't hitscan, you know. And, how is it extreme to require 1 ammo per 1 rocket? It makes sense.. The only reason the secondary requires half is because it has a high refire rate and low damage. And the secondary is very affective at close range.

I haven't studied the real world modern versions of these weapons

There are none They're just fun weapons that are expressed as science-fiction. (Like UT weapons)

To be honest you physics are kind of fun, they just make testing your weapon balance on your server less scientific is all I meant.

As I mentioned earlier, my server was using warmup.. I wasn't doing actual testing at the moment, I was just playing. Also, how? How would my physics with my balance be less scientific? I would consider the physics as a variable which would need to be accounted for in both testing 2.5 balance and my own balance, that way it would be equal. Meh.

[Flying Steel]

Erm, no offense, but you show no understanding of most the concepts in my balance..... heh..

None taken, I've only got the stats changes and a little personal experience to go on. I can only guess at your designs based on these. Also, I don't know all of the SVN code changes that your changes might be compensating for.

I DON'T think the 2.5.3 uzi is balanced. And even if I did, just because it's balanced in one context doesn't mean it is in all contexts.

Well no weapon can be balanced in all contexts, for instance even your Rifle would be imbalanced in the more open maps, maybe the Nex in your balance too, and your versions of these weapons are even less relatively powerful than in the other balances I believe.

This is a total misunderstanding of the mortar :X -- Sorry, but no, my balance does not do this... And even so, I don't believe the 2.6 balance does either.

Well you lowered damage without lowering edge damage, so that makes the weapon rely more on splash damage. There's less of a reward for direct hits because of this is what I mean. Then you compensated by giving the weapon a more level trajectory its sounds like and made its shots fly faster. So it just seems to me like this reduces the overall effectiveness of this weapon in the hands of a veteran player but makes it easier to wield for a newer player.

Admittedly it probably does make it behave more realistically though.

You're supposed to lead, it's about aim.......... All aim isn't hitscan, you know. And, how is it extreme to require 1 ammo per 1 rocket? It makes sense.. The only reason the secondary requires half is because it has a high refire rate and low damage. And the secondary is very affective at close range.

No other weapon requires leading like this, the hagar is like a damn nerf gun. The weapons with similar speed have real splash damage and no spread which are qualities the hagar lacks and that its DPS just doesn't make up for.

If its server kill stats look good then that's probably from the newbs spamming with it everywhere until they mow down the already wounded with less than 50 health. :p

There are none They're just fun weapons that are expressed as science-fiction. (Like UT weapons)

Heh, not too long ago someone was complaining about how the RL, GL, SG and MG all didn't belong in Nexuiz because they were too modern, and didn't fit a futuristic game like this.

But what I'm saying is a real life RL usually has a heavier and more damaging ordnance than any other infantry fired weapon, but can't really hold many of said ordnance or fire it very fast. Whereas the military recently developed a rapid fire grenade launcher, but you just can't kill tanks with it like you could a hand held (err well, shoulder fired) rocket launcher.

So I think people just expect something like this, only more in every way because the game is supposed to be futuristic, fast paced, science fiction, etc.

As I mentioned earlier, my server was using warmup.. I wasn't doing actual testing at the moment, I was just playing. Also, how? How would my physics with my balance be less scientific? I would consider the physics as a variable which would need to be accounted for in both testing 2.5 balance and my own balance, that way it would be equal. Meh.

Simply because people aren't used to it. I have played for so long with 2.5 physics that I'm sliding all over the place trying to get into position or stay in position and can't execute split second tricks that I've taught my muscle memory, until I have spent enough time getting used to these physics. It took folks like a week to get used to the 2.5 physics.

Also different physics could make people more or less easy to hit by affecting how fast they can accelerate and decelerate which translates into how much dodging or general unpredictability they can do. Generally speaking, faster physics should give hitscan weapons more of the edge than in slower physics like 2.5 default. Come to think of it this might be why you favor a slightly weaker MG and Rifle in your balance.

[PCLizard]

====================
// Mortar: I was going for a mortar that is quite a bit more fun to use.
====================
Primary:
- Damage: 50 (70 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed: 2,200 (2,000 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed_Up: 220 (200 in 2.5.3 balance)
Secondary:
- Damage: 60 (70 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed_Up: 150 (200 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Lifetime: 1 (2.5 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Health: 70 (10 in 2.5.3 balance) This allows rockets to destroy it, but not fellow grenades -- To stop combos from grenade spam.

Less damage for mortar primary direct hit is a no-no. This encourages nex whoring, which is the opposite of what should be done to slow it down. I would say HIGHER mortar primary damage would be a good thing to answer nex whoring, as people won't sit around camping with nex when they have a bunch of fairly strong mortars coming at them. I would think an ideal damage could be 75 or 80 at least...50 is going in the wrong direction. I would also like to see the radius (2.5.2) drop as well..I don't know what the value is for 2.5.3, but as long as it's a little less.....

[Samual]

====================
// Mortar: I was going for a mortar that is quite a bit more fun to use.
====================
Primary:
- Damage: 50 (70 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed: 2,200 (2,000 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed_Up: 220 (200 in 2.5.3 balance)
Secondary:
- Damage: 60 (70 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Speed_Up: 150 (200 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Lifetime: 1 (2.5 in 2.5.3 balance)
- Health: 70 (10 in 2.5.3 balance) This allows rockets to destroy it, but not fellow grenades -- To stop combos from grenade spam.

Less damage for mortar primary direct hit is a no-no. This encourages nex whoring, which is the opposite of what should be done to slow it down. I would say HIGHER mortar primary damage would be a good thing to answer nex whoring, as people won't sit around camping with nex when they have a bunch of fairly strong mortars coming at them. I would think an ideal damage could be 75 or 80 at least...50 is going in the wrong direction. I would also like to see the radius (2.5.2) drop as well..I don't know what the value is for 2.5.3, but as long as it's a little less.....

No, that's entirely wrong -- Note, I already DEALT with nex whoring, and also: it is then TOO POWERFUL.... I already did lots of testing on this with nifrek and other people. Also: I don't like it having a lower radius, it then makes the RL useless.

And once again, how does this encourage Nex whoring?... In any way?

If you people want balance AND you want powerful ass weapons, why don't I just scale up the damage on all weapons by 25%..... Seriously, lowering the damage from 60 to 50 on the mortar (And not touching edgedamage) is NOT A PROBLEM, because if you look here:

Code: Select all

//   {{{ mortar
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_damage 50
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_edgedamage 38
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_force 400
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_radius 140
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_speed 2200
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_speed_up 220
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_spread 0
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_lifetime 30
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_refire 0.8
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_animtime 0.3
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_primary_ammo 2
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_damage 60
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_edgedamage 38
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_force 400
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_radius 140
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_speed 1400
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_speed_up 150
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_spread 0
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_lifetime 1
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_refire 0.7
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_animtime 0.3
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_ammo 2
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_health 70
set g_balance_grenadelauncher_secondary_damageforcescale 4
//   }}}


The edge damage is 38, while the damage itself is 50 ----- That's still a high ratio of direct damage to edge damage! (Direct hit does 131% damage compared to edge damage)

[Flying Steel]

I guess my feeling is I'm not sure if it is an improvement to have 131% instead of 184% relative damage between epicenter and edge.

I mean yes, it does help distinguish the GL from the electro and RL by making it more splash focused.

But the downside is that the splashy GL and sloppy hagar in your balance and 2.6 to a greater extent, is they make these weapons kind of spamy.

You have to be careful with this when it comes to the explosive weapons because they already come close to the spamy side of the force with their high edge damage and large blast radius.

And you have to be careful of spam because it can artificially hold up spam weapons in balance statistics because newbes gravitate towards those weapons and have a harder time getting kills with anything else. But then when you have skilled players fighting, they don't use spam weapons because they are not as well balanced for delivering precise concentrated energy on a single target.

Instead the sweet spot is to keep the spamy guns easy for noobs to use, but have a DPS advantage in the hands of a vet who can deliver repeated concentrated fire, which is actually a lot harder than just landing a hitscan Nex blast on someone every second and a half and it also doesn't allow you to duck for cover while your burst weapon reloads or to account for the enemy ducking for cover while his burst weapon reloads. So you need to reward that enough if you want those weapons to be used in skilled games.

The 2.5.2/3 crylink and mortar are good examples of this principle, noobs can spam with them, but vets can also use their skill to bring out the higher DPS of these guns in serious games.

Think about it, it takes a lot more skill to make two direct hits with a mortar on someone than two direct hits with a nex, and yet your balance makes two direct mortar hits only marginally better than one nex hit. But default current balance gives a significant and practical advantage to the skilled mortar hits in this matchup.

A similar thing applies to the crylink in current balance. You can spam with it, but to really survive using it against a vet, you have to use greater skill by making many well placed hits quickly and only where cover is not readily available if against an opponent with a burst weapon (unless you can ricochet the shots around a corner onto him, which you can sometimes do).

[Flying Steel]

I have played around with the new 2.6 balance (balanceSamual) downloaded from SVN and so I have revised my feedback. I think this upcoming balance will be a solid improvement over 2.5 (let alone havoc) series as is. It makes uber weapons much more balanced and more of the lamer weapons useful. I think starting weapons could be more potent but besides that I only have a handful of remaining suggestions:

Mortar: Secondary still doesn't seem that useful or used. What we really need here is a much slower refire and greater ammo consumption, much greater damage and radius "hand grenade" that does not go off on contact, but only explodes when its 3 second or so fuse runs out. Something to toss around corners or places you don't want the enemy to go for a little while. Please code the secondary to not go off on contact with an enemy so that this weapon is possible and balance testing can begin on it.

Electro: Maybe slightly buff primary refire or damage. Combo could be a bit stronger too because of the difficulty and time it takes to deliver a combo storm.

Nex: Decrease damage another 10, down to 80. Because despite the range-damage falloff on both ends, and the less storage space for cell ammo in your mod, the nex is still too strong. Most likely because it is hitscan, no spread and the most powerful per shot weapon (important because you can shoot and scoot behind cover, greatly improving your DPS against a player with a rapid fire low damage weapon).

Rifle: Either add a headshot advantage for primary or remove it for secondary; it is too misleading otherwise, especially when the announcer exclaims "headshot!" for a hit from the primary, even though there's no point/advantage.

[Flying Steel]

Another idea for the Electro primary. Give it the burn effect the fireball has when it flies by you. Then electro bolt would damage players just by passing near them, even without touching or detonating on them, like the fireball BFG shots currently do.

I mean, if you aren't using the fireball gun in your balance anyway, why not reuse its most unique feature.