Balancing changes, Guided missiles, Weapon balance tests

[k0jak]

Yes, LH as Game Designer of the project decided so, and it's in the end his decision and not anyone else's.

However, what WILL happen in the end is in fact a merge of both worlds which will be the result of the rebalancing.

Yea I thought so, but why does he hardly post on the forums..I'm guessing he's a busy person but a lot of people are, and as the 'Game Designer'?

It would be a lot better if we could get his reasoning why for wanting such a change, rather then that he has said it and so it be done.

No offence to you divVerent as you do a great job of keeping everything toghether, but I think people would rather here it from him if he's the one wanting such a big change with some reasoning behind this and possibly upsetting the player-base.

As for the changes I respect that you have talked about testing and not rushing it, I just hope this doesn't ruin the game, but I can see quite a few players leaving unfortunately if this doesn't work

[divVerent]

Well, the reasoning by LH is: so many downloads, so few players, so most people download the game then reject it. Something is very obviously wrong with the game. So his idea is to steer it back to what new players may expect...

[morfar]

nexuiz-251.zip has 126,186 downloads on Sourceforge.net.
Maybe 99.9% only plays singleplayer? :P

I'm not worried about changes in gameplay yet, this is targeted for 2.6 afaik, it's a long time left :P
As usual I'm concerned about the different gamemodes, It's hard to balance Nexuiz for DM and CTF at the same time.
Maybe havoc can be used for dm/tdm, while stock nexuiz is for ctf and nexrun for race/cts.

[divVerent]

Different movement styles per game mode are a) not well supported by the engine, and b) will make life unnecessarily hard for players who'd have to adjust all the time.

[Flying Steel]

Well, the reasoning by LH is: so many downloads, so few players, so most people download the game then reject it. Something is very obviously wrong with the game. So his idea is to steer it back to what new players may expect...

They expect slower, realistic movement and no 'bunny hopping' (preferably with endurance limited sprinting). It's not the weapons, its the physics.

Just look at UT3, Halo (2-3 and ODST) and Tribes 3, they are "old school" shooters evolving into a world of modern shooters and player expectations. They have slower more tactical physics but their weapons aren't really any different from default Nexuiz' (aside from the underpowered shotgun and overpowered nex and a lack of a melee and homing weapon).

[Supa]

Hi, allow me to introduce myself. I was called in by LordHavoc to help overhaul Havoc mode a few weeks ago, and I suggested to LH to roll the Havoc mode weaponset and health system into basenex. I won't claim to speak for LordHavoc, but I'd be quite happy to explain any of the planned changes.. But judging by some of the statements made in this thread I don't think everyone has tried the new Havoc mode yet - *please* do so.

I couldnt test the new HP system, I hope finally its against stacking, so for example 1on1s will be finally interesting and not the fight of a 400/400 guy against a 125/0 player because anyone can say anything but thats not fun to keep control THIS way (especially due the pickup circles possible to make in this game)

I'm sure you'll be happy to know that this is exactly what was intended. :)

What is the purpose of havoc though?

Couldn't you just apply havoc's health system, slow the physics down like lordhavoc wants (but for some reason havoc mode lacks?) and turn the nex into a shock rifle (like it is in havoc) but leave the other weapons alone?

Because I like realistic-er physics and shock rifles just fine, but these changes really take the life out of weapons like the crylink and hagar.

The general purpose of Havoc mode is to reward careful positioning and map control. The weaponset was also rebuilt so that every weapon truly has a role and situation it'll shine in - you can't get away with brainlessly spamming the hagar rocket hose. :P

The intention behind the physics changes was absolutely *not* to make movement more 'realistic'. Rather, they are a part of making positioning much more important, just because it's so much harder to dodge in Havoc mode compared to basenex. That said, I disagree with LH and I think NexRun physics would suit the weaponset much better and could still keep an emphasis on careful positioning.

On a side note, the problem before was there was no 25/50armours in the game, the map's could do with some re-working to put these in, like aggressor/warfare where the is 3x 100armours, otherwise there's not much value if 200/200, as you can't defend the other 100armours.

This is a valid issue, and you're quite right that alot of maps will need tweaked armour loads by 2.6.

When you're done adding guided missiles, pogostick, HLAC, camping rifle as default, maybe we can add some mountable unicorns too? if that's too cliché, we could go with reindeer. I don't know of many non-Holiday games having mountable reindeer. ...

Relax. Play SVN Havoc mode please. What you describe is the exact opposite of what Havoc mode is meant to do. :)

As for the changes I respect that you have talked about testing and not rushing it, I just hope this doesn't ruin the game, but I can see quite a few players leaving unfortunately if this doesn't work

Again, I won't claim to speak for LH, but please let me assure you that everything I've suggested was with the goal of making Nexuiz a better game. :) If some players leave because they're afraid of change then that's fine, because so long as Nexuiz becomes a better game in the end, the playerbase should eventually grow larger than it was before.

[TVR]

The overall intention of Havoc [Pro] mode is to reinvent Q3A, which was what Nexuiz 1.0 was suppose to be.

All the developments in 1.x and 2.x were mistakes, apparently.

[Flying Steel]

Hi, allow me to introduce myself. I was called in by LordHavoc to help overhaul Havoc mode a few weeks ago, and I suggested to LH to roll the Havoc mode weaponset and health system into basenex. I won't claim to speak for LordHavoc, but I'd be quite happy to explain any of the planned changes.. But judging by some of the statements made in this thread I don't think everyone has tried the new Havoc mode yet - *please* do so.

I have tried it, both 2.5.1 and beta.

The general purpose of Havoc mode is to reward careful positioning and map control. The weaponset was also rebuilt so that every weapon truly has a role and situation it'll shine in - you can't get away with brainlessly spamming the hagar rocket hose.

Given that it is no longer effective in combat for any purpose, no you can't really do that.

The hagar was already one of the weaker weapons do to a combination of its wide spread and slow round speed. Now its much wider spread makes it useless in any situation. Probably ditto on the machinegun.

The intention behind the physics changes was absolutely *not* to make movement more 'realistic'. Rather, they are a part of making positioning much more important, just because it's so much harder to dodge in Havoc mode compared to basenex.

The thing is, it would have been much better to have just done that and not reinvented all of the weapons. Just made physics more tactical or such.

Because now the weapon balance will have to be rebuilt over years of testing and refinement.

And because this has also made it much harder to accurately hit anyone now, unless you have the Nex, HLAC, electro, GL or RL. The remaining majority of weapons are either underpowered or spammy to the point of no longer benefiting from aiming skill. So not only has dodging skill become less important, but so has aiming skill.

That said, I disagree with LH and I think NexRun physics would suit the weaponset much better and could still keep an emphasis on careful positioning.

Since only the Nex, HLAC and RL are better at hitting fast moving targets now, that seems like it would be a more imbalancing combination.

Again, I won't claim to speak for LH, but please let me assure you that everything I've suggested was with the goal of making Nexuiz a better game. If some players leave because they're afraid of change then that's fine, because so long as Nexuiz becomes a better game in the end, the playerbase should eventually grow larger than it was before.

I am not afraid of change, in fact I might be one of the greatest supporters of it in the community. But I am afraid that perhaps in trying to appease two diverging directions (classic nexuiz versus tactical gameplay) the most valuable aspect of the game (the fun and balanced weapons) could be lost.

That said, I'll keep testing new versions of Havoc and Default with an open mind, I just hope things get on a better path because it doesn't feel like the Havoc balance changes going from 2.5.1 to beta have really been an improvement.

[divVerent]

Note that 2.5.2 will not contain the current havoc ruleset. We're in a feature freeze, and some of the changes really are too big to get into the next release.

SVN users can test the "to-become-default" mode by deleting default25.cfg from their checkout.

Others can test it by joining the "future nexuiz rebalance" server on rm.endoftheinternet.org:26004.

[FraNcoTirAdoR]

I tested the havoc weapons yesterday, and i cant write a long post now, just wanna tell that nexuiz weapons felt even more spammy then ever before. Hagar, mortar, nex, mg need zero aim to hit, and with these settings electro primary is maybe the strongest weapon in nexuiz...(RL should be exactly like this)
why isnt hp and armor lowering to 100 btw? This is the biggest support nexuiz can give to campers, they can hold position forever on 400 hp together once they have stacked. Also this doesnt solve map controlling issues but makes much worse.