alientrap-forum-archives

by **GreEn`mArine** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:33 pm

for this I'd suggest sprites above the items. And would also be cool if you are spectator to see it

by **alpha** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:49 pm

PinkRobot wrote:
alpha wrote:I have positively never seen divverent on any server I regularly play with, CTF, DM, or otherwise.

I'm hoping div0 will not read that, or at least do the smart thing and not react to it. I would like to say though that MAYBE that is because HE spends most of his free time working on improving this already fantastic game, whereas YOU are dividing up your time between pwnzorlolling on said servers and posting WANT DO NOT WANT on this forum? Which you may even think will look cool, but to all the grownups here it makes you look like a twat.

You are talking in a degrading way about his latest offering, the music playing bots. It may sound like a silly thing to occupy yourself with, but he IS using that thing he finds enjoyable and funny to ALSO improve loads of stuff in the game itself and provide features that will later be used in maps that you will WANT because said improvements are awesome.

Proper analysis of changes requires sufficient amount of testing. What I see now are changes being introdues without proper testing, i.e. in my opinion, Dear Fuhrer has only theoretical knoweledge about what he is about to change. Prove me otherwise.

by **GreEn`mArine** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:14 pm

I think it is very difficult to say who has the clue and who has not. Arguments of the players' side is that they think that due to them playing the game (competitively) allows them to judge whether additions to the game are good or not. But can we (putting persons like you alpha, waterlaz and also myself together to "we" who play the game competitively and quite certainly voted for fixed spawn times) really know that for sure? "We" base our opinions on what the opinions of other communities (game makers of quake version X and other FPS games) already were, taking over their system without questioning it (well, of course we know the benefits of fixed spawns, that it takes the skill to time it and what not, but given the fact that the timer scripts take that 100% away its not really that much of a skill anymore, so we are sort of telling lies to ourselves).

So it might be not a bad thing when developers who don't play competitively (which div0 doesn't, he does play the game (in general, playing on FFA servers), but not competitively) change the game based on other assumptions and trying to make the game better for the general audience, which is NOT playing the game competitively (the competitive players are the minority actually).

Also, in case morfar keeps his promise up to have shorter release cycles, more feedback can be collected when such a change gets official for 1-2 months and can the default-value can be reconsidered for the version after the release.

Also, in case the competitively community hates this very much, I could still arrange this setting to be changed for ladder servers. The premise of changed settings on ladder servers is that such changes are changes that don't manipulate the game(play) in a way that normal players would be driven away from playing it (which would be the case for other settings, e.g. disabling damage through floor, changed weapon damage, etc.) - and I don't think that changing this setting would drive someone away from becoming (or staying) a competitively player.

EDIT: also note that the "needs sufficient amount of testing" thing is impossible, as the ones who play on SVN servers usually don't care that much to do a proper report about this. So putting new experimental stuff into new releases might be the only thing left.

by **Mr. Bougo** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:59 pm

alpha wrote:Dear Fuhrer has only theoretical knoweledge about what he is about to change. Prove me otherwise.

You did it yourself.
Your opinion is obviously skewed: you're not providing an objective critical point of view, so there's no way your points could be taken seriously.

Also, as far as I know, you're not omniscient. What you have seen does not include what other people would. I have myself seen div playing (as in, being part of a team in the process of winning a game). As far as I know, he doesn't play much 1on1 or ladder-like games. I don't either, does it mean my opinion doesn't count? I'm not sure. I've been playing since 2.3 and I believe I know what would/wouldn't annoy me in a competitive game. I can have a rough idea of the consequences of a change.

Now, if you paid some attention to the previous developments, you would have noticed that some changes have been introduced without consulting the whole community, and were debated afterwards, and sometimes reverted. Don't you think the best way to know how something will work practically is to actually test the change? And from that point, what more than a theoretical point of view do you need from the developers, since all the practical aspects will be explored in time without going through the pain of flamewars...

I'd say, let this change be, and let's see what we can do with it.

by **Waterlaz** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:11 am

Don't you think the best way to know how something will work practically is to actually test the change? And from that point, what more than a theoretical point of view do you need from the developers, since all the practical aspects will be explored in time without going through the pain of flamewars...

Well... the change is in svn. We are testing it. And I hope the change will be reverted =)

by **alpha** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:16 am

Waterlaz wrote:I hope the change will be reverted =)

I hope for this too. We don't need any changes in this area.

by **divVerent** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:58 am

Note that the opinion of people who ALWAYS complain about everything and never say a GOOD word does not count at all.

To judge an opinion, you have to put it in relation to the average opinion on things that person has.

If someone hates everything, it does not mean everything has to be changed, but rather that that guy should be playing another game. His opinions have to be seen as "neutral towards everything", as he's got an average opinion score of -5 and an opinion about things in question of -5 too, making a relative opinion of 0 towards the things in question.

If he says "I don't care about flags being pink and green", then this means he has an average opinion score of -5 about everything and -1 about flags being pink and green, so by relativizing, that person has a +4 opinion of making flags pink and green.

On the other hand, if someone likes everything and never complains, if he has a suggestion, it also doesn't have much weight as he'll be just as happy when not taking over the suggestion. It's then just an idea that does not change the overall opinion of the game

The best input comes from people who both criticize and support. But there's not many of these in this community.

As for the issue at hand, this means:
alpha's input is as it is always, so it's a 0.
from C.brutail it's a 0
from waterlaz it's a -1
from sepelio it's a +1
from tweak it's a -1
from komier it's more like a +1 with an extra suggestion that could make this whole point a non-issue (and actually, maybe it's a good suggestion)
from flying steel it's a 0

Makes a 0 total.

Now my input is "this gets rid of a cheat", thus +1.

So, before, if you had a mental or scripted timer you could organize in advance (say 10-20 seconds) and launch an assault for quad.

But now, with 3-5 sec notification it's basically about who's closer to quad point.

Skill in this? Give me a break.

The whole point is that there is NO skill in making timer scripts, or putting a clock next to your screen, or use the ingame clock, or whatever. If quad spawn is 120 seconds and the sound comes, all you have to do is remember the ingame time, subtract 2 from the minutes when you have time, and wait till the resulting time appears. Or are you telling me you consider it a skill that you can subtract 2 from a number of two digits? Give me a break, every child can do that.

Or, look at a clock you put next to the PC. When you hear the quad sound, remember where the big hand is. If the big hand is at the same point again, and again, the quad respawns. Every child can do that too.

Neither is there a skill in copypasting timer scripts others made.

The only time when timing the quad is a skill is when you do it in your head. And even then - it's a sign of stupidity if you do that, as there are easier methods (e.g. using a clock next to your PC).

And I simply decided that the point of the game is NOT being able to do things every child can do and then boasting about your 31337 5k1llz.

My question is, what makes it so difficult to stop at step 1 and add some preventive measures that allow feature X to be used only when some cvar is set (sv_cheats, developer, if_i_set_this_i_am_a_cheater)? Is it because step 5 is just too much fun or what.

Well, now it would be too late because the engine already supports defer. However, as said before, defer is not the only way to do item timing the cheating way.

I like the idea of a random starting point for powerup spawns. I don't like spawns being random throughout the game. If they have to be random (by consensus), then they should different only by small increments (like 5 seconds).

That's exactly what happens - quad spawn time is randomized by 5 seconds. It's always in the range of 115 to 125 seconds. And that interval can be made even smaller if needed, like, perhaps 117.5 to 122.5.

by **alpha** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:03 am

You know divverent, if what you said about my input and opinions was even half true, i'll probably give a damn. But seeing how this is basically load of biased crap against me, well, whatever, it's your forum.

by **divVerent** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:08 am

Show me a link to ONE positive meaningful gameplay related post by you on this forum.

by **alpha** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:30 am

divVerent wrote:Show me a link to ONE positive meaningful gameplay related post by you on this forum.

alientrap-forum-archives

Randomized quad spawn

Should we have a randomized quad spawn time...

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