Shotgun, why I think it's overpowered as a starting weapon.

[FruitieX]

Well, I nerfed the shotgun in my balance even more recently... The spread is ridiculous (You can't hit anyone more than 10 feet away with more than 1 bullet) and the damage is reduced DRAMATICALLY... Also: No force on the bullets... Basically, the shotgun is weaker than the laser right now in my balance to a certain extent... (Except at very close range, that's the only place where this weapon is useful, think of it as a GET OUT OF MY SPAWNING AREA YOU SPAWN RAPING BASTARD weapon)

Problem is, if it's weak and has a "fast refire rate" it means a spawnraper can just sit there with his nex, then fire a mortar at you, death within half a second - one second *looks at kojn >:)*. You might get a chance to fire two primary shots at the enemy, which won't help much (especially now that you "nerfed" them even further). What should be considered is a SLOW refire, HIGH spread, HIGH bullet count and as a result of that obviously a lower damage per bullet. Take a look at the Nexrun shotty for instance, you can do about 120 damage if you fire a really good shot from within close range, and still use it over long ranges but at a MUCH lower damage, still easy to hit though. Total maximum damage should of course not exceed what you spawn with, else this idea can backfire

Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though, which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon. What's the current DPS of the uzi at really, 300? Feels so after playing a couple of rounds against the frag machines.

[k0jak]

Actually for both of you, green has nerfed the shotgun to 50% and the mg to 80% of it's 2.5.2 values. So it should make them both fine now, shotgun definitely.

These should be fine, will make the mg still very useable and good to counter-act the nexgun so it's not just nex domination but also so it's a bit better balance wise, let the mg lightning gun style trade-off's re-commence!

I'm sure he'll put his values up in this thread

[GreEn`mArine]

new ladder settings:

Code: Select all

//Shotgun: bullets stay the same (6 bullets per shot).
//Max. primary damage per shot was 72, now 36 (if all bullets hit)
//Reduction to 50% of Nexuiz 2.5.2's damage values ... we want the starting weapon to be weak!
set g_balance_shotgun_primary_damage 6 // 12 in 2.5.2
set g_balance_shotgun_secondary_damage 6 // 12 in 2.5.2

//Machine gun:
// _first_damage is done by individually shot bullets (in primary fire mode) or when holding alt fire button
// _sustained_damage applies when holding primary fire button
//Reduction to 80% of Nexuiz 2.5.2's damage values
set g_balance_uzi_first_damage 28 // 35 in 2.5.2
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_damage 16 // 20 in 2.5.2

[Flying Steel]

Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though,

Just slightly increase its projectile speed, damage or give it a melee attack. Problem solved!

which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon.

That recreates the same problem, only with the MG instead of the SG. Besides we don't need two starting weapons in a game where each weapon has 2 attacks already.

[FruitieX]

Just slightly increase its projectile speed, damage or give it a melee attack. Problem solved!

Hmmm heck yes for all of these. But I still stand for my opinion that the shotgun should have a slightly longer refire on it's primary fire mode.
/me will try to improve his gauntlet code later today

[Flying Steel]

I'd prefer the longer refire on SG primary as well. Gives it more distance from MG and Crylink. Something like the shotgun from sauerbraten or halo.

[Samual]

I'd prefer the longer refire on SG primary as well. Gives it more distance from MG and Crylink. Something like the shotgun from sauerbraten or halo.

I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks. Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon. Also: MG as spawn weapon? SERIOUSLY FRUITIEX, GET OUT OF YOUR QUAKE-NEXUIZ MIXTURE...

I already increased the laser projectile speed from 9,000 to 12,000 (All laser weapons use this value now too -- Although that's the only laser weapon I have enabled in the balance). I had to do this so that the projectile would arrive at nearly the same time as before with a fire delay (This is to compensate for the 60fps ticrate planned for 2.6) The uzi is already nerfed a lot due to high refire rate, I had to balance it out so I removed all force from the uzi and lowered the damage significantly. (Same goes for shotgun, no force..... It's wrong.)

...

Problem is, if it's weak and has a "fast refire rate" it means a spawnraper can just sit there with his nex, then fire a mortar at you, death within half a second - one second *looks at kojn >:)*. You might get a chance to fire two primary shots at the enemy, which won't help much (especially now that you "nerfed" them even further). What should be considered is a SLOW refire, HIGH spread, HIGH bullet count and as a result of that obviously a lower damage per bullet. Take a look at the Nexrun shotty for instance, you can do about 120 damage if you fire a really good shot from within close range, and still use it over long ranges but at a MUCH lower damage, still easy to hit though. Total maximum damage should of course not exceed what you spawn with, else this idea can backfire

I don't really think spawn raping is an issue.. For one, it's CERTAINLY not an issue in team matches unless the enemy team is raiding your spawn.. In which case, you have the upper hand as you get to spawn right back there with your health again. In 1v1s, this only a minor problem really. Those who know how to spawn rape also know how to avoid being spawn raped (Get the fuck out of there quickly), it's a matter of your opponents skill versus your skill. If you're worse, you should be losing imo. Even so, predicting spawns is not possible (It's random) and even if you do get lucky, the enemy was the one who died in the first place. If they didn't die and you did, they would be the ones in the position to spawn rape you. However, one perfect solution to this is calculating enemy distance from spawn points when attempting to spawn, then selecting the one which is furthest away from the enemy (In DM only of course, or TDM or other game modes where this would work).

Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though, which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon. What's the current DPS of the uzi at really, 300? Feels so after playing a couple of rounds against the frag machines.

The current DPS of the primary of the uzi is ~91 and secondary is ~72. (AND THAT'S IF YOU HIT EVERY SHOT, WHICH IS HARD considering it fires 13 shots per second) along with 0 force, it's not exactly a strong weapon. It even has 0.05 spread on primary and 0.015 on secondary.



BTW, what Green did isn't enough, it's wrong for 2.6 balance. (Perfect for 2.5.2 balance, though)





Edit: I'd like to say that it seems most of you haven't really examined my balance Your lack of understanding for it (e.g. thinking the mg dps is 300... But that's not the only example) annoys me, please read balance.cfg in latest SVN (ALWAYS LATEST, as in the same day at least in case I make a change) before commenting on the balance. If you don't understand something about the balance, e.g. the uzi settings (They're confusing unless you know how it works) then simply ask how that works. Note: There are some parts of the balance which i'm completely undecided on right now, example being health and armor and ammo. So many people have so many different opinions on these, it's very hard to decide. Note: I'm looking for opinions which understand reasons to change it and not to change it, not "I don't want things to change" opinions. So ignore those aspects of the balance for now please, I need to do more testing and etc to find out what to do with those. I also need to develop the LMS health and ammo settings, and many other settings which take time to make.. I can't start on that until I decide on the primary health and armor and ammo though.

[halogene]

By the way, is there a test server up somewhere that runs your latest config? To me it would be a lot easier to understand the impact of your rebalancing if I could play some matches against human opponents. All the numbers are a great thing to compare, but I have learned that some weapons may have incredible dps values but still feel underpowered against other weapons that are, for instance, easier to handle.

I am not requesting a test server to be up, just asking if there is one, maybe I only missed it.

[C.Brutail]

Yes, DCC public servers use SVN MG, SG and RL weapon settings.

[halogene]

Cool, thanks! DCC's is the only server I am currently playing anyway. But, if I may ask, why only MG, SG and RL? Wouldn't it make sense to always use the full re-balanced config rather than parts of it?

Just curious... I feel like I am missing the bleeding obvious at some point here.