Shotgun, why I think it's overpowered as a starting weapon.

[C.Brutail]

Simple: I just don't really like all the changes in SVN. Though Samual showed me why he thinks these settings are cool, and I have to admit there's fantasy in it, it's just too far from classic Nexuiz. The electro might deserve the change too, the secondary fire is not so spammy, iirc it was something like this around 1.x too. I might revert the RL too, because it doesn't do enough damage imho.

[halogene]

Ok, thanks - that is a valid explanation :o)

[lda17h]

RL refire rate is slower than before right? This would be fine if the splash damage would at least stay the same imho. The speed has gone up, too.. So this might make for an interesting change in tactics.. Right now it feels a bit overnerfed..

[Flying Steel]

I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks.

But what does that have to do with refire rates?

Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon.

But it will be again the next time some other weapon is tweaked, or the code behind the shotgun is tweaked (like the recent hitscan > projectile > hitscan shift). And it will always throw things out of control when that happens because it is a starting weapon. And because it is a starting weapon with ammo consumption, that therefore needs to be reasonably powerful to be fair.

Also it's a fucking close range weapon, why is the main starting weapon only good in close? This contributes to ranged weapons like the Nex always ending up so imbalanced. Focusing the starting firepower on something versatile like the laser would help level things out on this issue of spawn camping.

Plus the starting shotgun is squatting on the close-ranged-powerhouse slot. Most games have a REAL shotgun, a powerful close-in pickup weapon. Preferably one that looks, feels, sounds and plays like some variant of a real shotgun (with some exaggerated spread).

Your balance might end up doing a good job of working around these shotgun problems, but it'll still play like a work around. And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again. There will be more 2.4 and 2.5.2 shotguns again and again and again. Just eliminate this problem for good so our children won't be posting in threads like these some day. :P

[FruitieX]

Idea for the laser: Actually make it a *real* laser, as in shoot a red beam similar to a lightningun (of course weaker than that). Secondary mode could still allow for trickjumps if we really have to have that...

[halogene]

I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

[Lee_Stricklin]

In my opinion a shotgun close to what was in 2.4.2 would work well. The damage rate was a bit lower than what I would have liked, but I think with a slight increase to that it would be balanced for the current version.

I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

*Thinks about many times where he has popped somebody up into the air and finished them with a shotty*

[Flying Steel]

I'll die before I go back to that (non-hit-scan) or a similarly bad shotgun!

I'll throw down the useless weapon at game start for some ignorant noob to pick up for its useless ammo, the poor stupid bastard. Then with one hand I'll train my oddly named laser on some nadless nex whore striking poor spawnlings with bolts of brilliant imba. His left hand fingers having atrophied from the years of camping, my first shots will be direct hits while he struggles to find WASD on his keyboard. But then there will be no salvation for me, my fate already having been sealed on these forums, by bean counters who for no reason at all decided to base my starting arsenal around the most shitastic shotgun seen in any game, ever. No there will be no hope for me, it is true only the good players get fragged early. With one, maybe two, clicks of the mouse from the icy fingers of the perched nex fairy, the chest of my fearless digital self will be torn instantly open, like the sudden blooming of a brilliant red rose of sacrifice, and the plasma in my veins will a moment later vaporize all that remains of my avatar into a rapidly expanding fountain of countless gibs and hearty all caps curses. Then, I may not have died a hero, but at least I will have died a man!

[Samual]

Oh god i'm in for some fun answering all this... I should be less lazy and go on the forums more often.. Anyway:

By the way, is there a test server up somewhere that runs your latest config? To me it would be a lot easier to understand the impact of your rebalancing if I could play some matches against human opponents. All the numbers are a great thing to compare, but I have learned that some weapons may have incredible dps values but still feel underpowered against other weapons that are, for instance, easier to handle.

I've said several times already that my server at matrix.mcintec.net is up with the balance.. However, there is a bug in SVN which makes some clients disconnect randomly for some reason... For now it seems only about half the people who connect can actually CONNECT, and it doesn't seem to depend on release version or the client at all really. I couldn't reproduce the bug locally either, and since the server doesn't get the crash report we're pretty much fucked until someone can help us out.

Simple: I just don't really like all the changes in SVN. Though Samual showed me why he thinks these settings are cool, and I have to admit there's fantasy in it, it's just too far from classic Nexuiz. The electro might deserve the change too, the secondary fire is not so spammy, iirc it was something like this around 1.x too. I might revert the RL too, because it doesn't do enough damage imho.

Yes, it is pretty far from old Nexuiz I suppose... Still deciding whether this is a good idea or a bad idea. Well actually, it's far from recent old Nexuiz Some changes are very similar to OLD versions such as in 1.1

RL refire rate is slower than before right? This would be fine if the splash damage would at least stay the same imho. The speed has gone up, too.. So this might make for an interesting change in tactics.. Right now it feels a bit overnerfed..

Well, the reason I lowered damage and radius IS because it's faster. The refire change was to prevent spam of a fast and strong weapon. (It also looked a little weird) Perhaps it is a bit nerfed, still have to tweak it more.. Some people complain about the radius being so low that their accuracy with it is much lower than normal, but this is just because they're not used to using guided rockets. (Which are basically a must with this weapon now) On the idea of guided rockets btw, I agree they're gay)) in 2.5.2 balance.. But it's a whole different idea with my balance, so don't kick it before you actually try it. It's kinda like changing your sensitivity from a high value to a low value, it takes time to get used to and even if you're bad at it at first you could end up better in the end.

I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks.

But what does that have to do with refire rates?

Their shotguns and the way they work are entirely different for the most part, and Nexuiz has had this refire time on the shotgun for a very long time and it has worked effectively in the past. I chose this refire because it feels best with the gun in my opinion (It's also the most balanced, giving a very interesting advantage AND disadvantage to using both secondary and primary), maybe if we had different sounds that would be a different story.

Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon.

But it will be again the next time some other weapon is tweaked, or the code behind the shotgun is tweaked (like the recent hitscan > projectile > hitscan shift). And it will always throw things out of control when that happens because it is a starting weapon. And because it is a starting weapon with ammo consumption, that therefore needs to be reasonably powerful to be fair. Also it's a fucking close range weapon, why is the main starting weapon only good in close? This contributes to ranged weapons like the Nex always ending up so imbalanced. Focusing the starting firepower on something versatile like the laser would help level things out on this issue of spawn camping. Plus the starting shotgun is squatting on the close-ranged-powerhouse slot. Most games have a REAL shotgun, a powerful close-in pickup weapon. Preferably one that looks, feels, sounds and plays like some variant of a real shotgun (with some exaggerated spread). Your balance might end up doing a good job of working around these shotgun problems, but it'll still play like a work around. And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again. There will be more 2.4 and 2.5.2 shotguns again and again and again. Just eliminate this problem for good so our children won't be posting in threads like these some day.

Let me start off by saying complaining that something might be broken by someone in the future is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. EVERYTHING CAN BE BROKEN BY SOMEONE IN THE FUTURE, this is why when you make changes you test them FIRST before committing and even releasing. I was using my own balance on my server and my clan server was using 2.5.1 balance, so I never noticed before the release of 2.5.2. Also, it doesn't need to be very powerful at all just because it has ammo consumption... You spawn with more than enough ammo to last you a while unless you're only using the shotgun, which is not the best of ideas as one of the main things you want to do when you spawn is find a few weapons and stack up. The idea is for the shotgun to allow you to do that without being entirely raped by someone with map control, even if it's inferior to other weapons it's still very useful. It's close BTW because IT'S A SHOTGUN... Again it's only meant to get you out of tight situations so you can get a real weapon. (Other players use it as a quick finisher too, many weapons are good for this but since the shotgun is almost always available it's a very good weapon for doing so) "And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again." FYI, this happens with almost every version... Actually, it DOES happen with every version with few exceptions. But not just to the shotgun, most weapons get minor tweaks some times when e.g. a weapon is added or removed.. It's called development. I doubt there will be more 2.5.2 shotguns BTW if the community tries builds before release.. There was good testing before, but we released a bit hastily with 2.5.2 and no one was running a 2.5.2 beta server with 2.5.2 balance.

Idea for the laser: Actually make it a *real* laser, as in shoot a red beam similar to a lightningun (of course weaker than that). Secondary mode could still allow for trickjumps if we really have to have that...

Worst idea i've ever heard :X Seriously. :X

In my opinion a shotgun close to what was in 2.4.2 would work well. The damage rate was a bit lower than what I would have liked, but I think with a slight increase to that it would be balanced for the current version. *Thinks about many times where he has popped somebody up into the air and finished them with a shotty*

Well, mine is fairly similar to it. -- But what when you say a bit low compared to what you would have liked, this is due to broken antilag.

2.4.2 shotgun has 60 force constant, 2.6 has 0 force constant.

Primary for 2.4.2 is 120dps and the spread is 0.08
Primary for 2.6 is 96dps and the spread is 0.11
Secondary for 2.4.2 is 180dpb and spread is 0.12
Secondary for 2.6 is 144dpb and spread is 0.17

Note: AGAIN most of the damage and spread difference is due to the fact that antilag changed, these really are very similar if you account for that. The only real difference is the force changes, but i'm against bullet weapons having force in this game.. I may do very little force eventually though, just because some people kinda want it.

[k0jak]

I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

Since when the hell is nexuiz meant to be realistic?

And since when the hell are we following starwars?

Laser beam primary (weak weapon) For The Win!

/me pats frutiex