Intertwinded weapon usage

[TVR [Public Terminal]]

The term 'weapon combo' refers to the usage of multiple weapons in conjunction.

The Rocket Launcher has base DPS of ~130 for direct hits, slightly less than the spawning health allotment, however when combined with possibly the Nex, the net DPS amounts to 255, such composite DPS is greater than for each weapon when fired individually, and more than enough to kill one with 200 armour & 100 health every second.

The addition of another variable, such as the Electro primary fire mode direct hit, only increases the net DPS to at least 466.

Now it has become readily apparent that weapon 'combos' are powerful, possibly to the point of being game-breaking, as weapon balancing has not accounted for intertwined usage, and never can be without violating the principal of for one to consider Nexuiz as a simple, old school shooter.

[Consider the effects of this to game modes that prominently feature destructible objects, eg. Assault & Onslaught.]

[C.Brutail]

consider Nexuiz as a simple, old school shooter

So you've never ever seen Quake World demos, where the nmy was hit by a rocket, boosting it to the air, and then immediately accepting the shaft? (Quake World did not even had a weaponswitch time! )

[divVerent]

You forgot one thing: even when weapon switching, the animation time of the last weapon shot has to elapse (usually 0.2 seconds) and only then a weapon switch can start (which takes 0.15 seconds).

I wrote a script that brute forced all cyclic weapon combos up to 8 shots, and evaluated their DPS.

I found that for Nexuiz Pro, the DPS for a single weapon is Crylink Primary repeatedly (150dps). Highest DPS for two shots is 225dps for Crylink Secondary, Mortar. The altogether best combo got 271dps and was the following sequence:

0.00: Switching to C
0.00: Firing C2 (75 damage)
0.30: Switching to U
0.30: Firing U2 (30 damage)
0.40: Switching to N
0.40: Firing N (70 damage)
0.70: Switching to U
0.70: Firing U2 (30 damage)
0.80: Switching to R
0.80: Firing R (90 damage)
1.10: Switching to U
1.10: Firing U2 (30 damage)
1.20: (repeat)

It is quite likely that this is the highest DPS weapon combination for Nexuiz Pro altogether.

Now, for regular Nexuiz, the situation is different. Crylink Secondary can already deal 280dps (and Hagar secondary is 267dps).

The only combo found that had higher damage per second is this sequence:

0.00: Switching to R
0.15: Firing R (130 damage)
0.45: Switching to C
0.60: Firing C2 (140 damage)
0.90: Waiting for C to get ready
1.10: Firing C2 (140 damage)
1.40: (repeat)
(293dps)

0.00: Switching to C
0.15: Firing C2 (140 damage)
0.45: Switching to N
0.60: Firing N (140 damage)
0.90: Switching to C
1.05: Firing C2 (140 damage)
1.35: Switching to R
1.50: Firing R (130 damage)
1.80: (repeat)
(306dps)

Now to evaluate the combos you mentioned.

Rocket-Nex:
0.00: Switching to R
0.15: Firing R (130 damage)
0.45: Switching to N
0.60: Firing N (140 damage)
0.90: Waiting for N to get ready
1.50: (repeat)
(180dps)

Rocket-Nex-Electro1:
0.00: Switching to R
0.15: Firing R (130 damage)
0.45: Switching to N
0.60: Firing N (140 damage)
0.90: Switching to E
1.05: Firing E1 (80 damage)
1.35: Waiting for N to get ready
1.50: (repeat)
(233dps)

Rocket-Nex-Shotgun2:
0.00: Switching to R
0.15: Firing R (130 damage)
0.45: Switching to N
0.60: Firing N (140 damage)
0.90: Switching to S
1.05: Firing S2 (180 damage)
1.65: (repeat)
(273dps)

To conclude: in regular Nexuiz, the highest weapon COMBINATION is less than 10% above the highest SINGLE WEAPON (Crylink secondary). So combos really won't help you in taking down the generator in Onslaught, for example.

In Nexuiz Pro, however, this is entirely different - the reasons why combos are stronger in Pro is that Pro has no weapon switch delay, while regular Nexuiz enforces a 0.15 second delay there.

[GreEn`mArine]

and guys, please, just maths won't make the point either. There are very effective combos ingame which do not only yield quite a bit damage, but it is also important to not allow the opponent to counter act.

A nice combo is the one shooting your enemy with mortar, as this will push him around and will not allow him to aim at you with any effective weapon (especially not nexgun, and also not RL either because your own rockets are likely to explode) except the mortar itself, and after the opponent is midair you nex him, and after that it really depends on the situation how you continue, often the MG is a good finishing weapon.

While this combo I mentioned may not yield very high numbers mathematically, they are very effective ingame, while other combinations you might tell me which are (by counting numbers) the most effective won't get you anywhere ingame in a match.

[divVerent]

Right.

The ones which are most effective by numbers are good for taking down objectives in Onslaught. And are what the OP calls an "exploit". As the numbers show, that "exploit" gains less than ten percent... so Onslaught stays fair.

The "tactical" combos you describe however are different. Another instance is hitting someone with the Nex, switching to the MG to finish him off with his remaining health. Or shooting someone with a rocket to the left, mortar to the right, and Nex in the middle. Such uses however were very much intended when I introduced the new refire count system... and it's good that people find them out.

[TVR]

consider Nexuiz as a simple, old school shooter

So you've never ever seen Quake World demos, where the nmy was hit by a rocket, boosting it to the air, and then immediately accepting the shaft? (Quake World did not even had a weaponswitch time! )

Simple and similar are not synonyms, 'old-school' is not necessarily simple, simple does not imply 'old-school'.

To conclude: in regular Nexuiz, the highest weapon COMBINATION is less than 10% above the highest SINGLE WEAPON (Crylink secondary). So combos really won't help you in taking down the generator in Onslaught, for example.

The original calculations for DPS of a 'combo' initiated upon weapon fire, as with morfar's DPS calculations.

For the Crylink secondary to deal full DPS, the player bbox [32^2] must be within ~230 QU in order to deal full DPS [withstanding probability of equal shot-hit ratio].

Expanding the scope of balance from DPS to additional factors, Rocket Launcher + Nex inflicts more damage in the first 450 milliseconds, adequate to frag before the Crylink secondary may, assuming an unilateral health of 100 HP + 100 armour, and weapon fire at the same millisecond. Furthermore, Rocket Launcher + Nex possess a greater effective range then the Crylink secondary.

... it is also important to not allow the opponent to counter act. ...

... as this will push him around and will not allow him to aim at you with any effective weapon ...

Too effectively perhaps? If it is so, a frag simplifies to whoever fires first, likewise to the Halo 2 SMG. [A default spawn weapon, if utilized by both target & firee in a firefight, consequently the person who fired eariler would deal sufficient damage to kill the target before the target could inflict sufficient damage to kill the firer.]

... While this combo I mentioned may not yield very high numbers mathematically, they are very effective ingame ...

It verifies DPS exclusively is not suitable for weapon balance, and the current weaponry is not balanced with intertwinded weapon usage in regard.

Nor is it possible to do so without elimination of one of two gameplay qualities, simplicity or similarity, given the complexion of intertwinded weapon usage.

[GreEn`mArine]

Too effectively perhaps? If it is so, a frag simplifies to whoever fires first, likewise to the Halo 2 SMG. [A default spawn weapon, if utilized by both target & firee in a firefight, consequently the person who fired eariler would deal sufficient damage to kill the target before the target could inflict sufficient damage to kill the firer.]

I didn't mean that once someone is pushed into the air by mortar he is absolutely helpless (which would mean that the one who hits you first, wins), but it makes it simply much harder (not impossible) to counter-act with the weaponry at hand. If you played some games against very highskilled players who master the mortar (e.g. Bundy or kojak) you'll see that, when you have no mortar, you're basically just dead unless you get a lucky shot at the enemy with nexgun or something (this is only the case in closed rooms, like aggressor).

[divVerent]

It verifies DPS exclusively is not suitable for weapon balance, and the current weaponry is not balanced with intertwinded weapon usage in regard.

Nor is it possible to do so without elimination of one of two gameplay qualities, simplicity or similarity, given the complexion of intertwinded weapon usage.

Why do you conclude that the weaponry is NOT balanced? IMHO it very much DOES make sense to be stronger if you have collected more weapons. Basically, you now are STRONGER than the strongest of your weapons, but still weaker than the sum of all your weapons.

[TVR]

It verifies DPS exclusively is not suitable for weapon balance, and the current weaponry is not balanced with intertwinded weapon usage in regard.

Nor is it possible to do so without elimination of one of two gameplay qualities, simplicity or similarity, given the complexion of intertwinded weapon usage.

Why do you conclude that the weaponry is NOT balanced? ...

The current balance has not factored intertwinded usage, thus 'combos' such as the Rocket + Nex are incredibly devastating, able to inflict greater damage then the Crylink secondary in lesser time.

Either weapon balance must account for intertwinded usage, thus would attenuate currently one-hit kill 'combos', or singular weapon usage must match the effectiveness of intertwinded weapon usage, therefore limiting the usage due to increased difficulty of use, and lesser gain. [Nexuiz Bunny-hopping to Nexuiz Strafe-jumping].

The former option would compromise the simplicity principle of Nexuiz, consequently only the latter option is viable.

... IMHO it very much DOES make sense to be stronger if you have collected more weapons. Basically, you now are STRONGER than the strongest of your weapons, but still weaker than the sum of all your weapons.

The result of the means used, which should grant an advantage purely in preparation for multiple situations, rather than a greater damage throughput.

[divVerent]

The current balance has not factored intertwinded usage, thus 'combos' such as the Rocket + Nex are incredibly devastating, able to inflict greater damage then the Crylink secondary in lesser time.

I disproved exactly that. Why are you ignoring my post? The best combo (Rocket-Crylink-Nex-Crylink) has 306 dps, the Crylink alone can do 280. That's less than 10%.

The only advantage of that "combo" is a tactical one, like, you can make him dodge by shooting the rocket, and Nex him where you expect him dodge to. Basically, it means you have to avoid edges and corners, and try to dodge in unexpected ways. That's not really a big change, especially in TDM where two players could already set up this very same trap.