[CTF] - My Views on the Game and the Current Scoring System

[[-z-]]

Introduction
My original attraction to Nexuiz was provoked by it being a free fast paced quake-esque game with Capture The Flag (CTF). I had missed the "Quake train" because my computer hardware was never really focused on supporting games until recently. Feeling the need to replenish the enjoyment I felt from my xbox live Halo 2 days, mixed with suggestions and explanations about the Quake series and their awesome physics and competitive nature from my friend drags... I came about Nexuiz which fit the bill. Nexuiz was great but it wasn't perfect, soon I learned through school and experience, no software is.

The open-source nature of the game allows us to contribute our ideas and content to make it better for everyone. Some ideas never make it, lacking time, potential or otherwise care. Others flourish, creating breeding grounds for an avalanche of ideas that result in creative content we can all benefit and learn from.

My background is in web design but I'm still a code monkey junky at heart. Through a community some of you may know, an environment in which players who strive for a deeper understanding in both life and the game, relative to realms of knowledge in which we can collaborate and learn with others is emerging. I love being able to contribute while I learn and knowing others are doing the same.

Thanks for the history lesson, what's this all about?
I've often commented, maybe even complained of the imperfections in the scoring system. Blub's most recent contribution, the client-side scoreboard, has opened the doors of score calculating opportunity by providing more detailed statistics on the scoreboard. Concerning CTF, there are two things I'd like to address the first can benefit both public and private games/servers, the scoreboard, the second is only a concern on public servers, team balancing.

My Views On CTF

Like many professional sports, it's best played with teams setup using an offense, midfield and defense.


Being able to rotate between positions is a good quality to have but it's not required to make a good team. Again, like in professional sports, not every player is good at every position. As such, I believe the scoring system should try and compliment this style of play. Producing a feeling of accomplishment for not only the flag carrier but the other members of the team. Promoting a visual acknowledgment of their teamwork.

I've described this style of play in the past but I wanted to share the practice in action. If you have an SVN copy of Nexuiz, you can check out this demo which I believe shows many aspects of my average experience in CTF. The rush, the fall, the teamwork and the not.

Now that the I've explained how I understand CTF, I'd like to continue by address the two issues I mentioned above.

Scoreboard
The current trend is to use a "simple" method, showing only the # of flag caps and score. I believe this causes selfishness amongst players, especially on public servers where the only thing players have to gauge themselves in terms of skill are flag captures.

A more detailed scoreboard would result in a higher understanding of an individual's contribution to the team.

Some complain that the amount of information presented to them on that board is overwhelming, which is understandable if you're seeing all the information at once instead of focusing on the details you're interested in.

Others complain that "CTF is not (T)DM", but if you're dying 20 times more than your teammates, you're hurting your team. Your persistence isn't what should allow you to succeed, I believe it should be based on skill. Otherwise, you're in sense just ~gaming the system~.

Another solution may be a percentage based team contribution column.

Team Balancing
Concerning team balancing on public servers, I believe can all agree, sometimes, it's just not fair.

I've written this information in another thread but I want to refine and readdress the idea in this thread ("idea ??" is not the best title for a thread).

Post game, I propose a player is given a value (this could be doubled over for use in game as the percentage on the scoreboard). This value is weight against all the other players from that match and balance the teams in a fairer way.

The essential ingredients for ranking CTF players would be:
kills, deaths, flag scores, flag drops, flag returns and time. Ideally, flag carrier kills and accuracy would be incorporated but that would need bigger code changes. But ignoring those factors we can do something like this:

(Pk-Pd)+2*(1+Fs*(Fk+Fd-Fr))
----------------------------------
(Tp/Tt)

Where:
Pk = kills
Pd = deaths
Fs = flag scores
Fd = flag drops
Fr = flag returns
Fk = flag carrier kills
Tp = player's played time
Tt = total match time

In english, You'll get a combination of your killing power (kills minus deaths) plus your value as a team player (returns minus drops multiplied by the number of flag scores times 2). Notice, if the player has more drops than returns, they will be punished by the same function that would reward them if they weren't such a selfish player. Option, 2 could be subbed in with a value set by the server admin, v. Then divide those two numbers by time.

Optionally, each F could have a weight value. i.e. Fr = Fr * Frm where Fsm = 1. While Fkm = 1.5. In English, The player would have a reward value mutator defined by the server admin. In this case, scores are worth the value of 1 but flag carrier kills would carry a higher reward.

to summarize:

(k+v(x))/t

where:

k = killing power
v = value as a team player
x = bonus/punishment multiplier
t = time


Examples:

((k-d)+2*(1*f*(r-d)))/t

25 kills, 5 deaths, 3 flag caps, 1flag drop, 3 flag returns, 6 minutes
(team player)

((25-5)+2*(1*3*(3-1)))/6
(20+2*(1*3*(2)))/6
(20+2*(3*(2)))/6
(20+2*6)/6
(20+12)/6
(32)/6 = 5.333

20 kills, 15 deaths, 0 flag caps, 3 flag drop, 1 flag returns, 6 minutes
(selfish / unaware)

((20-15)+2*(1*0*(1-3)))/6
(5+2(-2))/6
= 1/6 = .1667

To summarize
I have described what I believe to be the problem(s) with the current system. I spent a lot of time detailing this out and I expect mature, well thought out posts in response. I'd like to get your views on CTF in consideration to the details I've mentioned above.

[Ed]

Something I don't think your proposal addresses unless I've missed it, is that a team currently can win by never capturing the flag at all. Just by letting the other team get the flag and then fragging them and getting the return score. The only solution to this problem I think is the UT scoring system where a teams score is solely from 1 point per successful capture. There is still a secondary scoring system for team members. In UT individual achievement translates to a reward for those playing better as they earn more adrenaline from kills, captures and returns.

[[-z-]]

Something I don't think your proposal addresses unless I've missed it, is that a team currently can win by never capturing the flag at all.

Apologies, I did not clarify my stance on this. I still wish for captures to win the game. I propose these dimensions as a way to increase teamplay and enhance gameplay.

Additionally, these statistics may be used to break ties.

[Alien]

Or maybe back to the system where only captures counts. Personal kills are displayed but you still need to capture flags because frags are not added to the score. Btw, deaths does not mean a lot in CTF. It's sometimes more useful to suicide and then pick the flag again or suicide to catch enemy flag carrier in your base.

I would actually like system where players would be ranked on captures. It would increase learning rate of speed movement and dramatically decrease the number of campers. You can kill 100, but who cares if you was just ducking all the time behind some pillar.

[Dokujisan]

I see two elements to scoring in CTF.

1) Deciding the winner of the match.

2) Giving feedback (personal score) to show who contributed to the win and how.

In current (2.4.2) nexuiz, with flag scoring and kill scoring being a mixed bag, the two elements above are the same with a collection of a team's personal scores deciding the match, and with flag caps providing the most points to a score. So flag capping scores the most points. The second most scored activity is flag returns. The latter is supposed to prevent people from diving at the flag at every opportunity, even when they don't have proper team backup, because it gives a negative consequence if you lose the flag. Instead of acting to prevent the flag-diving behavior, people still dive at the flag anyway and it often causes one team to focus heavily on defense and rack up flag capture points. This is not the intended effect of flag return points (I don't think). That strategy of sitting in base and racking up flag return points, to me, is a version of "playing the system", even though I've done it plenty of times before.

To play with this scoring mode, you have to be more aware of the danger of flag return points, or else you will lose a match because of it. This is because those flag return points actually apply to number 1 above (they will help determine a winner of the match). They are not simply used as feedback.


So some have (heavily) suggested using a simplified scoring method that matches that used in other FPS CTF games, and that is 1 cap = 1 point and ONLY caps determine the winner of the match. It's very much like soccer (aka football) where goals determine the winner, and it is less like american football where you can score points in other ways besides just a touchdown, or less like basketball where there are three ways to score points (normal shot, 3-pointer, free-throw).

I personally feel like 1 cap = 1 point results in people dive-bombing at the flag even more. This is because there is very little consequence for doing so. If you lose the flag, no big deal. In this gameplay, it appears that a large strategic move is using most of the teammates to attack, and try to control the middle ground as much as possible, with very little attention to defense (since defense doesn't score directly). Instead of defense to stop people from getting to the flag, the strategy is to stop flag carriers in the middle area, or stop people in the middle area on their way to the enemy base.

I would LOVE to see a bunch of variations of scoring in CTF and I would like to have them tested by the community. The result would be variations of CTF instead of the plain vanilla CTF scoring. I also think these variations need to be called something other than just "CTF" so nobody is confused.

I could imagine modifiers to allow bonuses for teamplay, as well as a CLEAR feedback system that lets people know when they are doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing.

Perhaps these modifiers could still be attached to flag captures, so ultimately flag capping is needed to score any points, but it's not as simple as 1 cap = 1 point. No flag capping? No points. That makes the game still ultimately about flag capping. But the modifiers would make the difference if there is one team playing better teamplay than the other team and the caps are close or tied. So a normal cap (1 person by themselves with no teamplay) = 10 points, but it could be 12 points with a teamplay modifier. Then the trick would be to get the game to be able to recognize teamplay so it could score accordingly.

Personally, I would even give them a lower score of 6 if they used a rocket boost to traverse the whole map in 3 seconds, but that's just me

But please, let's make a rule during all of this testing of different scoring methods. No matter what happens, let's not have any arguments after a game of "well, if the scoring was XXXX, then we would have won." That is just like saying, in basketball, "yeah, if those three pointers were only scored as 2 points, we would've won". If you know the scoring system ahead of time, then you should adjust your strategy to that scoring system. That's really the whole point. Different scoring methods = adjusted strategies. That is what makes it interesting.

[[-z-]]

Btw, deaths does not mean a lot in CTF. It's sometimes more useful to suicide and then pick the flag again or suicide to catch enemy flag carrier in your base.

Ignoring the fact that you didn't read my thread close enough, let me expand upon what I said about deaths in CTF:

1) you lose your position
2) you lose your weapons
3) you lose a life
4) your teammates lose your support

How is a suicide a good thing?? Because you just wasted your life by running into the enemy base unprepared and just gave your teammates a bigger workload? That's a positive thing??

I would actually like system where players would be ranked on captures. It would increase learning rate of speed movement and dramatically decrease the number of campers. You can kill 100, but who cares if you was just ducking all the time behind some pillar.

I disagree. Captures only causes selfishness as I address above, speed can be worked on by item strings.

Campers? Ha, most campers can be taken out with a long range rocket. Most GOOD players don't camp, though it is a legit strategy and if you're complaining about it, you must not have found a good strategy against it.



Dokujisan, I think the modifiers are a neat idea but most likely better as a secondary score set. Other than skewing the actual point results, requiring a flag capture to gain the points off mutators I believe again shows too high of a reward for players to not be selfish.

With 2 separate scores, players can determine how they wish to play the game in respect to the 3 main positions.

[Alien]

tZork already wrote about deaths and I would agree with him about the value of death, Everything depends on the context. Suicide is not running into enemy base but killing yourself at your own will.
Why? I 've already said why suicides can be a good thing especially when you want to replenish health quickly.

Item strings? Why people should run for items when they can just camp others running for them? In addition, not all maps have item strings and not all items are useful. Furthermore, taking all items by yourself is bad.

Take me please with a rocket on fw.

Btw, i have read your thread and I mostly agree with everything except what you've said about deaths. CTF is not TDM.


Ok, I suppose you want an explanation:


When you're fragged and respawn, according to you, you should firstly stock health and armour. In my opinion, everything depends on the context, Let's say i am fragged by enemy fc, while giving him some damage. When I respawn, I quickly run into my death place until fc's health hasn't regenerated cause I have expectations to kill him. It does not matter that only GREAT shotgun is in my possession. Constant attacking increases my chances to take him down instead of allowing him to stock 300 hp 200 armour and trying to beat him 1 on 1 (which is almost impossible to do alone).

Another thing, why deaths are not important is sacrificing yourself (e.g. blowing rocket to stop enemy fc). Sacrifice will get you -1, but will allow your team members to finish the job.

Losing weapons is not a big thing (especially in defense) cause you shouldn't carry all weapons alone.

[[-z-]]

Why? I 've already said why suicides can be a good thing especially when you want to replenish health quickly.

I don't believe that's a strong enough counter argument for the 4 reasons I've listed above. You lose all your weapons and start with 100 health. I usually run around with 150/150-200/200+ because of the next item I'll address, item strings

Item strings? Why people should run for items when they can just camp others running for them? In addition, not all maps have item strings and not all items are useful. Furthermore, taking all items by yourself is bad.

Name one map you believe is without an item string and I'll make a demo for you to show you this isn't so. Items respawn every 15 seconds, and USUALLY because I'm a stronger midfield and offensive player, I take the enemy's items. Which is a win win situation, I'm gaining power and my enemy is losing it.

Take me please with a rocket on fw.

find me on IRC, and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

Btw, i have read your thread and I mostly agree with everything except what you've said about deaths. CTF is not TDM.

I didn't say it was and I believe I countered that argument in my first post.

Ok, I suppose you want an explanation:

Yes, yes I would.

When you're fragged and respawn, according to you, you should firstly stock health and armour.

Not my words. Item strings can consist of weapons as well. Depending on the situation, yes I too would run directly towards the enemy FC or my teammate.

In my opinion, everything depends on the context

This is actually fact. Context is greatly important. A smart man knows the rules, a wise man knows the exceptions.

Let's say i am fragged by enemy fc, while giving him some damage. When I respawn, I quickly run into my death place until fc's health hasn't regenerated cause I have expectations to kill him. It does not matter that only GREAT shotgun is in my possession. Constant attacking increases my chances to take him down instead of allowing him to stock 300 hp 200 armour and trying to beat him 1 on 1 (which is almost impossible to do alone).

Strength in numbers, team communication and a planned attack are much better than strategies than running straight for the enemy FC because he's ~running out of health~ and you're going to attack him with a shotgun and 100 health so you don't ~waste time with item strings~. Also, the shotgun is quite powerful if used properly, check out morfar's weapon data.

Another thing, why deaths are not important is sacrificing yourself (e.g. blowing rocket to stop enemy fc). Sacrifice will get you -1, but will allow your team members to finish the job.

Losing weapons is not a big thing (especially in defense) cause you shouldn't carry all weapons alone.

While a sacrifice may be admirable in certain situations, I don't think a reward is in order because it creates incentive to do this. We're trying to limit the amount abuse to the system. A sacrifice is just that, a sacrifice. If you're so worried about having enough health to return the flag after you kill the flag carrier, so you can reap all the points (note that you'd get points for flag carrier kills in my proposed theory and bitching about ~losing flag returns points to your teammates~ is selfish), perhaps you should consider using more item strings.


I think a lot of your arguments stem from largely unexplored physics on your part. I think you'd be surprised just how fast some players can move while maintaining their health, armor, weapons and understanding of the entire map.

Speed allows you to shrink the map and break down strategies into simple movements based on item availability and flag status.

[divVerent]

Code: Select all

(Pk-Pd)+2*(1+Fs*(Fr-Fd))
----------------------------------
(Tp/Tt)


Such a formula for scores in the game is NOT AN OPTION. It simply is too complex.

First problem: if you never have returned a flag, captures HARM your score. What is with that?

Second problem: If you have returned a flag 5 times, but died with a flag 10 times, capturing HARMS your score. What is with that?

Third problem: You join 5 seconds before the end of a 20 minutes game, and kill someone. That means 240 points for you. What is with that?

And the final problem: such a formula is simply too complex to base scoring on. Although nonlinear scoring (where the same action does not always give the same score) sounds interesting and will help balance, it simply is not transparent to the players - which is why no sport does that. People would not understand any more WHY some team has won.

Imagine doing a similar system in basketball:

score = ball steals - ball losses + 2 * (goals * (dunks + longrange goals - fouls))

so one player would get 20 points for what now is 3 points... and people would not understand it. Maybe the players can be trained to understand such a complex system - and e.g. have some players pass the player with more dunks and longrange goals the ball to score as that means more scores for his team - but what about the others, new players, TV announcers, and the public?

So even if the formula did not have the aforementioned bugs - it is not an option to decide team scores on. For personal stats that have no influence to scoring, it may be a good idea, though - but only if the bugs are fixed.

[Alien]

Map example: facing worlds, hydronex, basically any map with direct nex vs nex combat involved. Enemies will kill you if you jump around in the map stocking up.

Does not matter how fast players move cause they can still be shot with nex. Item strings are available only then when you're playing with and vs team, which does not care about them.

You shouldn't have more than 2 other wpns in addition to 2 starting ones.

I know morfar weapon stats, but I can also see how it is not used almost by anyone and general people opinion. That high damage is achieved only when you're basically touching your oponent.

I'll see you on irc.

And there is no and probably will never be any communication in public ctf.

And div0 it's shot not goal.


Btw, I know I'm not fast. I've seen jLue playing (or teaching me) and I know that I lack a lot speed and skill in speed movement, but even it won't help in certain situations.