Improving the bots

Developer discussion of experimental fixes, changes, and improvements.

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Postby MRB 255 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:11 am

Alien wrote:Bots would require fuzzy logic, that is their goals would have different "I want that" values based on the current situation and not only get armor, get health, get gun thing.


Yah, the bots don't seem to prioritize item pickups; they even try to take rocket packs when they have 999 ammo. But other stuff, like the flags in ctf, is treated seperately and is assigned a highter "base" priority (to bots that are in the offense role), but the bots calculate the best item to take next just based on its base value and the distance it would have to walk. So, yah, it's currently kindof (but not technically) like a finite state machine.
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Postby mand1nga » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:12 pm

Well .. This is a message for all the Nexuiz maintainers and developer(s)

I want to contribute to the project with code, I made this patch and I have work in progress for making the bots play better when they are inside a team.

Why? Because I love this game, and enjoy coding. Also it feels good to give something back and getting involved with open source for the first time. I don't use to have a lot of free time, but on this days I have lots of free time, so thats why I've started this.

Also I think it would be nice to reach a point where we can get some fun playing against bots, not the rocket spamming whores we have right now. I think about this many times when I see the Campaign menu as one of the main menus of the game.

But the thing is, I still haven't received any feedback about my little contribution. I said this before, but I want to add some things:

- Its ok if you say something like "your code sucks dude", but please provide me with some advice/directions about how to improve it

- There are some lines in the code that looks really painful to read. Well .. that code *is* messed up already, it is the current weapon selection ai. I only added support for weapon combos to this code, making it just a little messier. I would like to clean that code later, adding the new SVN weapons, and making it understandable for a human being.

- Do we have the structure for supporting those wanting to become developers or make sporadic contributions ? If not I'm afraid that Nexuiz is just dying.

Regards
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Postby divVerent » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:02 pm

Well, who SHOULD be looking at it? I'm out of this, mostly, and simply have found no time to check out this huge patch. That leaves LordHavoc, and I haven't seen him for two weeks now. I am even less inclined to look at your patch after the master of arrogance and manipulativeness tried to push the issue on me.

Remember that his pressuring me to implement stuff I didn't even like, and then complaining that I did it wrong, was one of the main reasons for me leaving, as I refuse to work for an OPEN SOURCE PROJECT as a HOBBY when under PRESSURE by arrogant manipulative people.

And no, there is no such "structure", and never was, as such structure requires people to support it. The team is simply too small. It was too much for me to do everything on my own, so I had no choice but to leave.

Just wait, there's nothing else that you can do.

Has anyone of the "users" tried the patch?

Also add to this that the bot code is only really understood by LordHavoc. It is nice that you did get so far, but well, even I don't understand what that code is doing.

Maybe send your code to LordHavoc via e-mail, his address is to be found on http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/email.html
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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Postby mand1nga » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:59 pm

Well, who SHOULD be looking at it? I'm out of this, mostly, and simply have found no time to check out this huge patch. That leaves LordHavoc, and I haven't seen him for two weeks now. I am even less inclined to look at your patch after the master of arrogance and manipulativeness tried to push the issue on me.


Gah .. I know about who you are talking about ... What can I say, you should know I was a little disgusted with him. I made clear my position in a post, like a lot of other people in that odd thread. I think the message was clear. But now I'm just waiting for a change, I think that most people can change, and not losing faith is the best way I know for making that change happen. Maybe I'm just too idealistic, maybe not. But this time I just don't know about what you are talking, I'm afraid I'm not part of that. All I can say is that he just asked me in good grade to talk with you about getting my code reviewed. Anyway I think this is between me and the developers/maintainers, I really don't want/expect to involve anyone else if it will not be for constructive feedback and good vibes.

Remember that his pressuring me to implement stuff I didn't even like, and then complaining that I did it wrong, was one of the main reasons for me leaving, as I refuse to work for an OPEN SOURCE PROJECT as a HOBBY when under PRESSURE by arrogant manipulative people.


Well I work mostly as DBA, but I'm a part-time developer too with many years of experience, and I think I understand how you feel. Since I've started lurking on the forum I saw a great deal of bad vibes against the developers, maybe the same kind of complains you get when you are maintaining any other system. You have there both extremes: retarded people and good people, you can choose to who do you want to listen, talk, interact. I'm afraid you took too much of the bad energy that is *always* (imho) floating around. My point is, you enjoy programming and enjoy playing this game, also I can bet that you have very good friends here; Can't you just ignore all the morons and the noise and just get what makes you feel good or what you can interact in a positive, constructive way?

And no, there is no such "structure", and never was, as such structure requires people to support it. The team is simply too small. It was too much for me to do everything on my own, so I had no choice but to leave.


Yes, I know. What you made and your level of understanding of Nexuiz really amazes me. And you resisted too long. I don't know what to think, maybe this is a side effect of not having a strong leadership, or maybe we should be a little more organized. It's clear that all the project direction, maintenance, bug fixing, presence on the forums just can't /shouldn't be handled by just one person.
Also I know that when someone is involved like you in a project it becomes really hard to leave from one day to another. I prefer to think that you want a change, instead of stepping back.

Just wait, there's nothing else that you can do.


I think I waited enough, if I don't get a review soon I will ask for SVN access, I feel strong enough for requesting it. If not ... well I think it will the right time for giving up.

Has anyone of the "users" tried the patch?


I know some friends that can help me with this. I'll try this way too. Anyway I'm confident enough about the quality of this patch, I really don't want to waste anyone's time.

Also add to this that the bot code is only really understood by LordHavoc. It is nice that you did get so far, but well, even I don't understand what that code is doing.


Yes, its a pain in the *ss. I had a hard time reading it before to start writing.

Maybe send your code to LordHavoc via e-mail, his address is to be found on http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/email.html


Thank you very much. I'll try this way too.
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Postby Alien » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:50 am

In the worst case you could always provide a separate patched progs.dat to download.
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Postby FruitieX » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:26 am

I'd be more than happy to test your code, too!
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Postby C.Brutail » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:16 am

I'll try to test too, but I have a few questions too:
I'm using SVN most of the time, so I'm building the game from the SV source. If I aply your patch, how'd it interract with the next version of SVn update? Could it fail? (I'm not afraid of it, but it's a hell lot of time to re-check 2 gigs, and I already have two different SVN checkouts for Nexuiz, one for playing, and one for mapping. Another 2 gigs... erm... would be rather "useless".)
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Postby morfar » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:15 pm

C.Brutail wrote:I'll try to test too, but I have a few questions too:
I'm using SVN most of the time, so I'm building the game from the SV source. If I aply your patch, how'd it interract with the next version of SVn update? Could it fail? (I'm not afraid of it, but it's a hell lot of time to re-check 2 gigs, and I already have two different SVN checkouts for Nexuiz, one for playing, and one for mapping. Another 2 gigs... erm... would be rather "useless".)

SVN is smart. But if you get a conflict in the future you could just delete havocbot.qc and bots.qc then update again. I'll check this patch out also.
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Postby Alien » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:39 pm

Use this: http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/c ... /svn-clean
It will clean the source without the need to redownload everything.
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Postby divVerent » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:41 pm

Actually, I looked at the patch now, and found it doesn't even do much at all. Maybe it would even be wise to use it, and manually calculate the weapon priorities for the distances based on the weapon parameters (e.g. by a script, or an excel worksheet).

That would make the bots a bit less smart, but provide an easy way to add new weapons, and also it would allow different bot "personalities" in the future (like in UT or Q3A, that is, making one bot a "rocket whore", another a "laser camper", the next one an "annoying sniper", etc.).
1. Open Notepad
2. Paste: ÿþMSMSMS
3. Save
4. Open the file in Notepad again

You can vary the number of "MS", so you can clearly see it's MS which is causing it.
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