CTF Gameplay Mechanics

[divVerent]

Also, we have already seen that reducing the FC's speed, or penalizing him in another way, is not feasible. It's been tried out and met too much resistance. And we certainly won't do such a change against most of the current players. This thread had no reason to exist.

[TVR]

... players that are challenging themselves will lose interest if you clip their wings. ...

There are feasible alternatives for those who prefer high-velocity flag runs with multiple pursuers futilely attempting to retrieve the flag, Warsow CTF, and Nexuiz Keyhunt.

... It's been tried out and met too much resistance. And we certainly won't do such a change against most of the current players. ...

As ultimately, the decision of settings is at the discretion of the particular server admin,.

Perhaps the base settings could be balanced for 'mainstream', while 'enthusiast' servers could modify it as seen fit.

[[-z-]]

Yeah awesome, lets get more fans by discouraging the hardcore guys, they can just go play other games instead. They are ~TOO GOOD FOR NEXUIZ~.

I think a feasible alternative is that you stop believing everyone thinks like you and listen to the statistics that have been repeated to you. People don't like the flag carrier reduction.

For good reasons too! One's that I don't care to repeat. However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets.

The current solutions that exists are websites, specing, playing the bots and getting your ass kicked on public servers. Website aided (videos, demos, literature) and spectating education is a "pull method", meaning the user must seek to learn beyond regular game play. Leaving only playing bots and public servers.

Bots are not a good way to learn movement. Bots don't bunny hop, bots don't laser themselves, bots run awkward and they have annoyingly good knowledge (beyond awareness) and aim. They are not a very good teacher beyond the basics and target practice.

Play on public servers are thus to best method to advance in learning beyond the basics. The 2.4.2 flag scoring system gives the player 1 points for picking up the flag and does not punish them for dropping it. This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. This is where the negative pickup acting as a deposit comes into play.

The deposit non-verbally asserts value to this object and much like children learn not to do bad things or they will get spanked, the negative value alerts the player that their "contribution" to the team wasn't really all that much. This forces them to understand beyond the literal translation of the title and into the depths of this game type.

And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag, even after some of the most respected players in the community have given their opinions against it?

Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. If you need to lie to defend your point, I think you already know your solution's whack.

[take_this_cup_of_poison]

Yeah awesome, lets get more fans by discouraging the hardcore guys, they can just go play other games instead. They are ~TOO GOOD FOR NEXUIZ~.

I think a feasible alternative is that you stop believing everyone thinks like you and listen to the statistics that have been repeated to you. People don't like the flag carrier reduction.

For good reasons too! One's that I don't care to repeat. However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets.

The current solutions that exists are websites, specing, playing the bots and getting your ass kicked on public servers. Website aided (videos, demos, literature) and spectating education is a "pull method", meaning the user must seek to learn beyond regular game play. Leaving only playing bots and public servers.

Bots are not a good way to learn movement. Bots don't bunny hop, bots don't laser themselves, bots run awkward and they have annoyingly good knowledge (beyond awareness) and aim. They are not a very good teacher beyond the basics and target practice.

Play on public servers are thus to best method to advance in learning beyond the basics. The 2.4.2 flag scoring system gives the player 1 points for picking up the flag and does not punish them for dropping it. This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. This is where the negative pickup acting as a deposit comes into play.

The deposit non-verbally asserts value to this object and much like children learn not to do bad things or they will get spanked, the negative value alerts the player that their "contribution" to the team wasn't really all that much. This forces them to understand beyond the literal translation of the title and into the depths of this game type.

And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag, even after some of the most respected players in the community have given their opinions against it?

Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. If you need to lie to defend your point, I think you already know your solution's whack.

Z: I like that config that you are suggesting, Do you have a cfg file I can add to my server.cfg so CTF will work like that on my server. It will make flag runners use diffrent paths rather than just going from base to base mindlessly (and getting fragged 100000000000000000 times while doing it). But then again no one will use my server because it doesn't enable hook and they hate my maps (because you often can't go from base to base in a straight line (they're not space floaters):P)

[[-z-]]

it's in svn as ctfscoring-z.cfg

[TVR]

... This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. ...

Even with a flag return score of 1/4 the capture score, as the Attacker to Defender ratio is weighted on to the side of the Attacker, which a given attacker is more likely to capture than to fail against an equivalent Defender.

And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag ...

The given Attacker is already more likely to succeed than to fail at a flag capture, but the current majority of maps cannot accommodate such in a balanced manner, therefore a handicap is required until the given Attacker is more likely to fail than to succeed.

Handicapping flag carrier acceleration is but a fix for a fraction of CTF GPMs, other issues include rewarding inefficiency by granting greater points for engaging an enemy after touching the flag, rather than as soon as possible.

... Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. .

If you are to contest the validity of my analysis, I invite you to disprove it.

Relying on the credibility of the source is a logical fallacy, the source does not affect the validity of a statement.

[[-z-]]

lawl, I have disproved it, you just argue until people stop replying and call it a win.

I know thinking you're always right may work for you in your own world but when you start working with others, we need to find some common ground. The change you're in favor of is not that common ground.

kenji described the fast way to play nexuiz in the most concise way I've heard.

I kinda like the concept of using a projectile weapon for jumping. It puts a new dynamic onto health, like health becomes fuel. If you want to rocket jump, it will cost you X amount of "fuel"

Understanding and challenging this fundamental movement concept will further your abilities as a Nexuiz player. And yes, it's a fabulous way to overtake even the fastest of flag carriers. 200 health can translate into 2 rocket jumps that'll get you closer than the target.

[TVR]

... However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets. ...

The mindset suggested is the willingness for every player other than the flag carriers, to accept the current unbalance, and to be entertained while doing so.

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... 200 health can translate into 2 rocket jumps that'll get you closer than the target. ...

Rocket-jumping is required to only MATCH a rocket jumpers' velocity, however much more must be done by the pursuer when contrasted to the pursued.

The pursuer must deal damage with a weapon at an high velocity, while at the same time, using another weapon to boost velocity to match the escapee.

The pursued receives first preference of pickups, an advantage with weapons [as the attacker will have to run directly through a rocket's impact location, losing health & velocity, or directly through a field of electro balls in order to maintain distance with the pursued], and while pursuer loses velocity when fired upon, the pursued gains additional velocity from directed weapon fire.

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[[-z-]]

Okay, well if the flag carrier has more health than you, than you and your team aren't working together very welcome because he just stole all your health and armor while stacking.

If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. Otherwise, that's my 100 armor and that's my rocket past his slow ass.

I can think of a million other ways to catch up to the flag carrier. Mortars fly fast an far, aim one in front of him and catch him on a wall. Same with laser, laser them off their path. Alert your team with waypoints or other good communication.

The only thing that's stopping you from catching up with the flag carrier is your attitude that it's impossible. I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. Low and behold we all think of the health system as kenji detailed above.

[TVR]

... Okay, well if the flag carrier has more health than you ...

The advantages of the flag carrier stem from the lead position in a pursuit, even with equal health, if pickups are not available to the flag carrier on the first pass, neither will pickups be available to the pursuer on the second pass.

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... If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. ...

One point has been missed. ... a rocket the pursued fires to shoot at his pursuer reaches him FASTER than a rocket the pursuer fires at the flag carrier he's pursuing! ...

The flag carrier possesses a weapon advantage, the flag carrier's 'three rockets' will be more effective at halting the pursuer, than the pursuer's 'three rockets' for halting the flag carrier.

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... I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. ...

An important factor is that the pursuer-pursued relation is reversed, intercepting a flag carrier requires more skill than it is to escape with the flag, simply because pursuit requires more work & effort in Nexuiz. To pursue one that is using a weapon to boost their velocity, one must match the target's velocity by boosting, as well as maintaining a steady aim and satisfactory damage to negate any health related pick-ups while continuing to whittle down their health at a sufficient rate, and optimally, not boosting their velocity far further.

It is about the disproportionate effort required to intercept a flag carrier in comparison to escaping with the flag.
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