CTF Gameplay Mechanics

[[-z-]]

The advantages of the flag carrier stem from the lead position in a pursuit, even with equal health, if pickups are not available to the flag carrier on the first pass, neither will pickups be available to the pursuer on the second pass.

False, items respawn. It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there.

... If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. ...

One point has been missed. ... a rocket the pursued fires to shoot at his pursuer reaches him FASTER than a rocket the pursuer fires at the flag carrier he's pursuing! ...

The flag carrier possesses a weapon advantage, the flag carrier's 'three rockets' will be more effective at halting the pursuer, than the pursuer's 'three rockets' for halting the flag carrier.

Yeah... but he'd have to be running backwards... so... disadvantage for that advantage.

... I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. ...

An important factor is that the pursuer-pursued relation is reversed, intercepting a flag carrier requires more skill than it is to escape with the flag, simply because pursuit requires more work & effort in Nexuiz. To pursue one that is using a weapon to boost their velocity, one must match the target's velocity by boosting, as well as maintaining a steady aim and satisfactory damage to negate any health related pick-ups while continuing to whittle down their health at a sufficient rate, and optimally, not boosting their velocity far further.

It is about the disproportionate effort required to intercept a flag carrier in comparison to escaping with the flag.
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God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return.

[TVR]

... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

... God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return. ...

Given defence is more difficult than attack [Tribes CTF], and given it takes more effort to retrieve the flag than it is to escape with the flag, it weighs the Attacker to Defender success ratio onto the side of the Attacker, which doesn't match up to the current majority of CTF maps [Quake/UT style] well.

[[-z-]]

... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

Shinanigans.

... God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return. ...

Given defence is more difficult than attack [Tribes CTF], and given it takes more effort to retrieve the flag than it is to escape with the flag, it weighs the Attacker to Defender success ratio onto the side of the Attacker, which doesn't match up to the current majority of CTF maps [Quake/UT style] well.[/quote]

Other games didn't allow you to pack up 999/999 and use 3 different weapons to project yourself around the map. And Nexuiz is faster.

It comes down to creating the smallest, fastest patterns, shorting the time for 1) your armor/health to rot, 2) your enemies to get weapons or otherwise items.

I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

"I can't find the flag carrier, I'll race him back to the base"

[TVR]

... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

15 * 800 = 12000

1000 / 12000 = 1/12

1/12 a chance at best, for a non-megahealth, 100 armour, or powerup [longer respawn times are more improbable] pickup to respawn immediately in the time between the flag carrier pass, and the pursuers' pass.

I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

A Tribes CTF tactic, but significantly less effective on non-Tribes CTF maps.

Tribes-style CTF maps separate the flag and base, both bases are equivalent in distance to both flags, therefore a flag carrier sheltering in the team base 'turret area' during cross-capture is slightly disadvantaged to the opposing team, in time to reach flag when the flag is returned [proportional to the location within the base]. The opposing team is easily able retake the flag if the flag stand isn't controlled.

Quake/UT maps, however, situate the flag at the base, which grants impeccable advantage for the flag carrier to withstand retrieval attempts AND to score after the flag is returned, in comparison to the opposing team from the opposing base.

This relegates almost all action from the entire game, on to the flag carriers.

Which is unacceptable for team-based gameplay mechanics purposed to entertain.

[[-z-]]

... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

15 * 800 = 12000

1000 / 12000 = 1/12

1/12 a chance at best, for a non-megahealth, 100 armour, or powerup [longer respawn times are more improbable] pickup to respawn immediately in the time between the flag carrier pass, and the pursuers' pass.

You've obviously never take a statistics class because your argument is completely skewed. You're looking at a single item and assuming a constant speed. You can't oversimplify it like that. There are many items that get picked up at different times and there's even the chance the flag carrier willingly won't pick it up. If you're hopping around the map doing item strings this isn't a problem anyway, you just plan a route around the flag carrier to cut him off.

I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

A Tribes CTF tactic, but significantly less effective on non-Tribes CTF maps.

Tribes-style CTF maps separate the flag and base, both bases are equivalent in distance to both flags, therefore a flag carrier sheltering in the team base 'turret area' during cross-capture is slightly disadvantaged to the opposing team, in time to reach flag when the flag is returned [proportional to the location within the base]. The opposing team is easily able retake the flag if the flag stand isn't controlled.

Quake/UT maps, however, situate the flag at the base, which grants impeccable advantage for the flag carrier to withstand retrieval attempts AND to score after the flag is returned, in comparison to the opposing team from the opposing base.

This relegates almost all action from the entire game, on to the flag carriers.

Which is unacceptable for team-based gameplay mechanics purposed to entertain.

You like to underline random words to emphasize the fact that you're trying to treat the physics of Nexuiz like you do in other games. That doesn't give your argument more substance, it just further proves you aren't trying to understand the way you can push the limits in Nexuiz.

Play smarter not harder.

[TVR]

... You're looking at a single item and assuming a constant speed. You can't oversimplify it like that. ...

Is the averaged speed reasonable?

... There are many items that get picked up at different times ...

1/12 for every item, is it not?

... and there's even the chance the flag carrier willingly won't pick it up ...

If there is a chance the flag carrier may avoid a specific pickup, consequently there is also an equal chance the pursuer may avoid a specific pickup.

... you just plan a route around the flag carrier to cut him off ...

Given a constant acceleration rate shared by both the pursued and pursuer, any lead the flag carrier has will be maintained through different routes.

... you're trying to treat the physics of Nexuiz like you do in other games. ...

The particular manner of movement is merely an abstract concept of increasing acceleration, both games share this concept, but the map design differs.

... you aren't trying to understand the way you can push the limits in Nexuiz.

Regardless, it is not but the abstract concept of travelling quicker & quicker, which is permitted to both the pursuer and pursued, thus constant pursuit distance, hence constant advantages to the pursued.

[[-z-]]

I'm not even going to bother arguing this anymore because you refuse to believe the flag carrier can ever lose speed or make a mistake and that he'll withhold his advantage even when opportunities arise for the purser to overtake him.

As I said before, we think about the game differently. Your style will work against others playing your style but play against some of the players I've named above and your techniques will fail.

If I'm holding an average of 200/200 health/armor because of the way I move and stack, I'm at a clear advantage over your slow moving 100/100.


I have hundreds of demos that prove your logic wrong.

[divVerent]

This argument is going nowhere.

You both, TVR and [-z-], are totally incapable to accept others having a different opinion than yours. Both of you do have valid points, but both of you refuse to accept anything the other writes. Both of you consider yourselves the most intelligent person on the world, and everyone having a different view than yours must consequently be stupid - according to you two.

Can you please stop with that? This so much looks like Usenet now.

[[-z-]]

For the record I don't think I'm always right nor the most intelligent person in the world. I listen to critique but when someone's telling me something is not possible when I have evidence that proves otherwise, I will not let them spread such untruths without a fight.

I welcome anyone to play Nexuiz however they please. The Ninjaz exist for players to push the limits of the game. While I don't expect all players to play this way, I'd like people to be informed on the possibilities. Pretending such possibilities don't or shouldn't exist is narrow minded and it pisses me off that TVR would tell such players to "go to Warsow".

Theory is largely responsible for improvement in my skills. I'm just trying to dispel the myths in this thread backed up by said theory. These tactics are only hard because it's easy. This theory allows you to create smaller patterns with less variables, meaning less chances of failure.

[divVerent]

The thing you fail to see: there is more than one way to "push the limits".

And not every way that "pushes the limits" should be appreciated, as some of these ways may simply defeat the purpose of the game, or may be outright unfair.

I won't write publicly WHAT exactly we were talking about on IRC, but you did say it is perfectly valid to use means to improve your playing that are illegal in many countries, while I am of the opinion that playing fair means not taking advantages that are not feasible for everyone to use.

Quoting Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

Now applying this to using means that are illegal in some (not necessarily including your) country. If you do that, you must will that it should become "common" to do that. Do you really want more than half of the Nexuiz players to become criminals for what you were advocating? Or do you finally realize that what you were advocating is NOT the same as "using a bigger mouse pad", quoting you?

Now back to the topic. Being insanely fast, running home alone with the FC. Is that really the purpose of a TEAM game? I don't care that YOU can do it. But if that became "universal law", it'd mean everyone just plays for himself. Do you really want that?

No, you actually don't, as you proposed a scoring system to drive players away from that, albeit very successful, path. If players get irritated by negative scores and change their behaviour, your solution works. If players think a step further, they'll see that only captures count, and start playing the same way as before, ignoring their negative score, and bringing home every 10th flag. To minimize that, you count on peer pressure, as in, players vote kicking players who have a bad negative score, EVEN IF THEY ACTUALLY CAPPED OFTEN. That's a mighty negative force you are toying with, and one I don't want to see on my server.

The last thing I want to happen to Nexuiz is kick votes becoming the norm for the smallest "offences" like, just being not a good player. I want the Nexuiz community stay friendly, and not as harsh as the Warsow or - even worse - the Tremulous one. Kick votes have their place, but should be used only for "strong offenses" like ACTUALLY harming your team more than just by taking up a player slot and throwing off team balance (note that team balance can be still good if the other team has a noob TOO), e.g. by team killing, chatting all the time and REFUSING TO BECOME A SPECTATOR AFTER BEING WARNED (yes, warnings still have to be spoken out, immediate kick vote is the wrong way to go), or kick votes can be used against really bad offences like hurting the atmosphere on the server by insulting everyone on the server, or abusing the vote system for selfish purposes.

However, kick votes should NEVER be used to punish someone who has another view on the game than you do. If he does not care for personal score but brings team score home (i.e. captures), let him do that.

So hereby announce that I will kickban people who start kick votes against others for merely having a bad score. Yes, even if it is you (although you do not play on my servers, so this is no issue). And I recommend any server admin to do the same.