CTF Gameplay Mechanics

[divVerent]

Back to the main topic of this thread: [-z-]'s suggestion to fix CTF mostly does work, and is being tried on my server for weeks now. Teamplay did improve, without doing harsh things like kick votes for large negative scores. If it stays that way, fine. But let's see what happens if players get used to the system more.

Therefore, [-z-]'s way to fix the CTF problem should be considered another option to fix CTF, and be included in TVR's poll.

Therefore, the third variant is:

[-z-]'s way: keep gameplay mechanics as is, keep maps as is, but use a per-player scoring system that "looks" like it punishes sole successless capture runs.

[[-z-]]

The last thing I want to happen to Nexuiz is kick votes becoming the norm for the smallest "offences" like, just being not a good player

If I knew more about quakec, I would circumvent this with a:

Code: Select all

PSEUDO CODE

$scorelimit_to_force_spec = -20;

if ($score < $scorelimit_to_force_spec) {
   force_spec($nick)
}

function force_spec($nick) {
   set $nick spec
   msg $nick "You're actions are negatively affecting your team, please spectate for 5 minutes and try to get a better understanding of how to play this game type."
}


[divVerent]

That's just as harsh. Against.

[[-z-]]

That's just as harsh. Against.

You should watch more animal planet.

I think it's far less punishment than getting votekick banned. If the player's refusing to learn, guide them. 5 minutes ANNND a message that tells them why they were forced to spec is much kinder than a group of people teaming up to say "GTFO".

[divVerent]

It sure IS less, but it is still wrong. Also, every normal player would simply DISCONNECT when such a message comes. Not being allowed to play for 5 whole minutes is far too much (and IMHO also why arena and LMS are not played).

[Alien]

Ok, it seems that after one month of arguing nexuiz mo...asterminds can't still stop. There is no need to change anything. Personally I could even go for ONLY CAPS count NO BOOST reduce for 3.0 as default mode if map makers will make ctf maps which fit nexuiz (3.0 because good maps need time to be made). Trying to adapt nexuiz to current maps is WRONG.

Trying to build a basic map design concept is much better way than this arguing bs. Actually, it only shows how stupid it is that you can't stop after one month of useless typing.

Ok, several principles of probably good CTF map design:

1) Symmetry
2) No one large open area without obstacles, you can't shoot/fly from one base to the other
3) Flag should be deep inside the base (current example mikectf).
4) Each base should have multiple routes inside, yet the ways out of them should be well known and merge in the centre of the map, that the both teams could know where to deploy their forces instantly(moonstone, ctctf6, mikectf)
5) Spawn points should be distributed equally around the base and not in one specific area (so that even recently respawned player could have a chance to kill the fc).
6) Maps should always have roofs to prevent running over buildings - speedcapping.
7) Instead of 90 degrees corners, all turns should be curved. This would let you keep the speed of bunnyhopping or use new hook.
8) Space maps shouldn't be made as two floating bases across each other. Good example would be mentalrespaced with central platform and floating one removed and gasoline_powered style bunkers between each of the side platforms, which (bunkers) would block vision and prevent camping.
9) Map layout which would be easy to remember also helps (moving through various pipes, secret rooms, dark chambers or labyrinths doesn't make map good and annoy most of the new players who find it hard to play, remember, find the exit).
10) Trick-jumping should not be made as the only way to get somewhere or take smth. All things should be reached on foot. These could be reached quicker using trickjumps so it will provide incentive to learn tricks, while still letting new players take items in the old fashioned way.
11) Push pads shouln't be abused.

Considering all these points I mentioned, there is no point in boost reducing for fc.

Banning, kicking, not allowing to play for other players because they don't know how to play is lame. It's definitely better to have a password system then.

Personal scores should be counted as I suggested previously long time ago or similar way (I'm not saying that you need to have MY score system, but similar one would work the best way). This would work like q3 system, where personal score is shown, but it doesn't decide the winner of the game.

Have you ever wondered why q3 didn't have one large open area CTF map designs? Because people would abuse rl like laser and rl are abused now in nexuiz.

There is no need to invent bike when it is already invented. I suppose epic and idsoftware actually invested in researching which game mode works the best (having large army of betatesters, collecting statistics, while you think that your new untested game mode will make a REVOLUTION).

EDIT: I would call all this thread the f&$#@ theatre of brainwashing SOPHISM, where you argue not for the sake of truth, but to be the f#$#@# winners, the last posters.

[divVerent]

I agree to most of your points, but:

mappers want to make open maps, with terrain.

I hate such maps, but mappers want to make them, and they WILL make them, no matter if gameplay on them is good or not.

[Alien]

No, good mappers won't. Bad mappers would, but does anyone care about bad maps?

Firstly, dp sucks at open maps. It's not dp fault but dp was not designed for this. If you can't make good open map (good are sev's or cluefull newbs maps), why bother at all.
These open maps are the state of ART, but not very useful for actual gameplay. You tend to lose focus looking at the pretiness and of course they tend to drop fps alot on slower pcs.

Secondly, nexuiz community has a lot of very good mappers. Currently they were focusing into dm, but maybe everything will change, cause nexuiz already has a lot of good dm maps. Maybe organizing contest like ctf map of the month would help and somehow awarding the winners. Look how good morphed contest went (even lurking I read everything).

Thirdly, pure terrain maps are borring. Why? I'm not going to cite mikeusa. His post should be somewhere around.

Nice open maps should be much bigger than they are now. Consequently, they would require some convenient means of transportation. All games having nice large open maps had some means of transportation (far cry 1-2, hl2, >= ut2004, bhd, halo).

Finally, and the most important thing nexuiz is (was?) old school shooter. Of course, it can change, but old school means came, saw, made a pile of gibs and not picked up a tank or camped while hidden in the bushes.

[[-z-]]

I know you felt passionate about your post but I don't appreciate being called "stupid" for defending my view on CTF and trying to dispel the myth that slowing the flag carrier down will "fix ctf".

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, yourself included but if you start off with an insult and back it up with some uniformed bullshit you pull out of your ass, you sir are the one who's looking "stupid".

I did a lot of research on my scoring system, a lot of theory and TESTING, even divVerent has contested it has had results. So why not shove your "idSoftware didn't do it, so it can't be good" comment back up your ass and contemplate for yourself how it would affect gameplay.

I hate that "the top guy in the market didn't do it so it can't be good" attitude. I worked at a world wide corporation that built their IT infrastructure based off their competitors choices and they were losing thousands of dollars a day because of this poor decision. A little in-house R&R goes a long way. Especially when it's done by people who live and breath the products they represent...

That's a wonderful list about maps but this thread isn't labeled "how to make good ctf maps" and we aren't arguing about the maps (at least not any more).

Personal scores should be counted as I suggested previously long time ago or similar way (I'm not saying that you need to have MY score system, but similar one would work the best way). This would work like q3 system, where personal score is shown, but it doesn't decide the winner of the game.

WOW, agreeing with my scoring system!

Have you ever wondered why q3 didn't have one large open area CTF map designs? Because people would abuse rl like laser and rl are abused now in nexuiz.

Space maps...?

EDIT: I would call all this thread the f&$#@ theatre of brainwashing SOPHISM, where you argue not for the sake of truth, but to be the f#$#@# winners, the last posters.

How the hell have my arguments not been truth? I've simply been trying to open the unbudging TVR to the idea that playing smarter by utilizing projectiles is a solution.

I have agreed with TVR before, just not on this.

[Alien]

FPS shooters are played 20 years, CTF is 10 years old. Do you really think that your idea or TVR's ideas are somehow innovative? If you dig up various quake mods for various versions you'll see lots of CTF improvement mods. Somehow, none of them become popular and made to next retail version of game and... maybe there is a reason for this, don't you think so?

I've called this thread stupid and not aimed at anyone personally. Haven't you both noticed that you argue for all month alone? Like two children who could not share the same toy.

About q3 ctf maps:
http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php ... etail&id=5

The only ONE space map which is called SPACE CTF. Of course, Nexuiz has a remade, which is basically run and cap. This only shows that Nexuiz needs are special and not all q3 rips work.

I don't remember whether TA added more space maps. Maybe.

How the hell have my arguments not been truth? I've simply been trying to open the unbudging TVR to the idea that playing smarter by utilizing projectiles is a solution.

This is not related to CTF at all. Go back to the previous thread and argue again (about that rl jump thing). Being so sure about own righteousness can easily lead to blind arrogance.