Change of MG and SG to ballistic mode

[divVerent]

to "prove" that antilagged bullets are being worked on, and that they will have the full feature set of ballistic ones (can also go through walls, and gravity affects them) even though they hit instantly. All they still need is a particle effect that doesn't look like this one, but is barely visible and thin. Maybe sparks flying in the shot direction would be a good start.

[GreEn`mArine]

Were is that part about input being ignored? A f*cking stormfront of complains being ignored for the sake of ones state of mind.. yeah i can see that.

Lets face the fact, this change was active on the MAIN development server of almost a month, noone complained, now that this change got into svn and is also on my server people complain? Well that should have been enough time to talk about this change in a kind way.

Besides, as good as svn is, i think we have too many SVN server that do NOT give feedback to the developers... which result in stuff like this. For example i have never seen the admin of the ToT server anywere in contact with developers.. The svn buld scripts in the forum were MOSTLY intended for people to test the client! How are the devs supposed to find out what people like and what not with out such active feedback?

And even more, people are working on solving this issue right now... again, were is that ignoring part? I really think some people (including developers) should try a mind-check.. The way this went off was just totally wrong.. You can't expect a change in half a day.. but you can expect people to get angry with the way i heared demands and shittalk regarding this ballistic change like on irc... even more so if the change was tested and has good reasons like improved visuals and being more cheat prone. And weapon stats were collected before this change made it into svn which revealed no big changes.

But some people act like the deverlopers want to screw this game up on purpose.... Oh come on, really, whats wrong with you guys? Though we are close the the code freeze Nexuiz is still in development and we have better things to do then get into a bad mood or talk down on anyone. Everyone wants the next release to be big and good and get people to play with joy. Try to show some of that joy even if you want to criticise stuff!

Well, even though I am an active community member for years it didn't occur to me that divverents servers were meant to contain changes that are NOT in SVN. This is even a change that is actually HIDDEN and not obvious, unless he states it in his MOTD which I didn't check. If I had played on his server, I would jsut have thought: "hell, he jsut disabled antilag (in general)" and would have left after 5 minutes due to "FFA gaming quality". Whether this change is on his server for a year or a day doesn't make a difference if you don't know about that, but think that you are supposed to test committed SVN changes.

The way it looks to me (not saying that it IS that way) is indeed that devs want to ruin their (their != our) game. I can remember times where devs thought that antilag is the pure evil and developers introduced sv_clmovement_minping and other horrible ideas, and if I hadn't participated in the fight for changes back then like I am now, I would probably have left the scene a long time ago. And the "you had one month time for testing" is indeed a good excuse to use - at least for this case anyway (I know about this principle in general, but though it applied to "what is in svn is supposed to be tested).

However, I am trying to keep objective here, hell that costs energy
No dev has given a statement about my counter-arguments. They provided arguments such as
- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

This is why I say the community (ok, me in this case) is ignored, since my arguments are ignored.

Apart from my arguments, I am arguing here all the time, because I am a player who was able to actually use SG and MG very efficiently so far. With this change this is gonna change, and I am hot happy looking forward to this. This change stays in Nexuiz? -> Nexuiz will be less fun for me

EDIT: one more note: I am not against projectile/ballistic properties of the shots in general. I am just against removing antilag for these weapons.

[divVerent]

However, I am trying to keep objective here, hell that costs energy
No dev has given a statement about my counter-arguments. They provided arguments such as
- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

Then CR becomes just as annoying as the Nex.

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

Won't help.

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

Think of it as removing the old MG, and adding a new weapon.

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

Then I'd rather have no instant hit weapons.

Anyway, a solution for this (with not very good effect) is in svn.

EDIT: one more note: I am not against projectile/ballistic properties of the shots in general. I am just against removing antilag for these weapons.

But as it would be retarded to penalize the "strong" rifle by ballistics, and have the "weak" uzi stay hitscan, this means you are totally against ballistics.

Anyway, try the "antilagged" ballistic projectiles. g_antilag_projectiles 1 in svn.

[Sepelio]

Well was just playing a little there.

The higher fire rate MG seems absolutely nuts I think. Not had much chance to use it but it seemed pretty powerful at close range but I suppose thats what the aim was.

Assuming the SG on that server is still set to projectile, its totally useless. I cant seem to hit a damn thing.

[FraNcoTirAdoR]

But some people act like the deverlopers want to screw this game up on purpose.... Oh come on, really, whats wrong with you guys? Though we are close the the code freeze Nexuiz is still in development and we have better things to do then get into a bad mood or talk down on anyone. Everyone wants the next release to be big and good and get people to play with joy. Try to show some of that joy even if you want to criticise stuff!

Perfectly agree with this statement, it's BOTH the developers and the community's responsibility to raise this great game to an even higher level, and that can only be happen with the mutual respect of eachother.

The source of the problem was I think, that the casual/experienced players who were willing to test the newest SVN setting in action all went to Planetnexuiz.de testserver (just like me), because it's the most common testserver currently (we gotta face it...), and it wasnt implemented yet there. As you see, as soon as it got applied, you got immediate response from the community about the balance problems freshly occured. From my viewpoint: I immediately noticed it after the first mouseclick, that something was changed, asked it from esteel, he confirmed. Then i was testing it for 4 hours in CTF so I could have some thoughts how it works on open and wide-spaced maps. After that I went to play 3 hours of 1on1 too how it works on close range DM maps, and wether it still fits into the repertoire. So it wasnt like: *Connecting to de green*... *Shooting with mg*... *WHAT THE F**K??? It's a sh*t!!!!*.......*Posting immediate comment on it on the forum*...

Thank you divVerent for your fast reaction with the machinegun-balance change, I'm going to test it right now, these numbers seem to be quite correct for a first look, lets see how they work in practice

However there are two notes I wish to share with you and recommend to think about:

- The shotgun balance problem DOES occur in close range without antilag! You just need to take account that players have on average 90-100 ping. So, why its important? Because on close range the distance that someone travels in 0.1 second (from bunnyhopp and laserjump) is REALLY relevalent. Lets say its 1 meter for example. (I know Nexuiz has difference in metric system thats why someone can bunnyhopp with 100 km/h... Just making distances up by perception) A moderate player can be that fast when running for/with flags. Because shotgun is a close ranged weapon, its highly possible that that 1 meter travel will happen about 1-2 meters in front of you. Now it means that you don't just need to correspond it with aiming 1 meter in front of him, but also note that on the monitor it can mean even 5-8 centimeters on really close range and moderate lag!

- Another thing I would like to add: the current speed of both the machinegun and shotgun bullets are way too low. In real life the speed of the bullets is about 5-900 meters per second, that means if you shoot with machinegun on facing worlds for example (coz everyone knows its base-to-base size), the travel time of the bullet should be around 0.1-2 second, at least i measure the distance like around 150-200 meters. So why im telling this? Because if we are talking about realistic implementation if bullets, you shouldn't see them at all because of their extreme speed, ESPECIALLY on close range! Soo, that can result the turnoff of the visible shotgun shells, as 1 solution, because its currently NOT realistic. This could solve the balance issues for sure, and it wouldn't have any drawback, because you always know from the sound what direction you are shot at on very close range (even with a 2.1 sound system). Shotgun wouldn't loose anything from realism, whatmore, could make more realistic! Also like this antilag on shotgun could come back

Well that's all my thought about this whole issue, time to test the new machinegun, you could read my ideas with the explanations, so now comes the testing part

EDIT: after a fast test I realized that the machinegun's bullet speed maybe shouldnt be changed, but what i wrote about the shotgun is still valid i think

[halogene]

I followed the discussion here with a lot of interest. My two cents in a nutshell:

To me, the MG was important for long range combat whenever I did not have a nex. No matter if that was not intended, I liked this function of the MG. It seemed natural to me that there is more than one reliable and effective long range weapon. Otherwise you always would have to run for the nex, no alternative.

Now, I haven't yet figured out how to use any of the new weapons reliably and effectively at long range. So unless somebody tells me there is a good way to hunt down a strafe-moving camper from the distance, I feel making the MG ballistic shifts the weapon balance.

@div: you may or may not remember, but I was playing on your server some time ago and after I said something strange is going on here you explained the changes to me (thx for that!). I remember saying that I hope there will be a compensation for the loss of the MG as long-range weapon...

but then again I feel I am maybe not an experienced enough player to criticize development decisions. So I go with what goes anyway.

[GreEn`mArine]

- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

Then CR becomes just as annoying as the Nex.

Fine. I didn't understand the need of another hitscan weapon in the first place anyway. And as it is not placed on any official maps it doesn't matter how CR works (for me).

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

Won't help.

List reasons please...

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

Think of it as removing the old MG, and adding a new weapon.

So this means a official weapon has been removed that I and other players I like -> great. This perspective is not really considerate...
In my perspective, handicap was added to the weapon so that additional skill is needed to circumvent it.

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

Then I'd rather have no instant hit weapons.

I know you don't like hitscans like MG and SG.

Anyways, I'll try the g_antilag_bullets setting tonight. Thanks for putting efforts into this!

[Alien]

Can't weapons be antilagged but not hitscan? Or maybe I don't understand what antilag for WEAPONS means. Antilag moves players backwards in time for the lag value and checks if somebody was hit. Therefore you need to compensate only for ballistics and not lag.

Hmm. and it seems alpha rants affected nex.

[morfar]

I mostly agree with Green here.
I see both pros and cons with ballistics bullets (most cons). My opinion may change later who knows.

I've must also try g_antilag_bullets later. I just tried it locally but that isn't ideal I think

[esteel]

when playing locally you can simulate ping via cl_netlocal_ping (iirc) i guess then you can compare how ping affects both modes the best