The process of testing new features

[Dokujisan]

This issue has happened about a hundred times now, yet we haven't come up with any solution for it. So far, when major change is made to Nexuiz, it is tested in whatever way makes sense to the developer at the time. It is expected that everyone would test it and respond. If nobody responds, then it is assumed that the change is an acceptable one.

This doesn't work.
Can we all agree on that?

I'll site a recent discussion about ballistics.
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=4256

Div wrote...

Anyway. Too late. It has been tried on my SVN servers before commit. On the SVN servers that were there SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of trying such stuff before commit. For over a month. If you complain NOW, you're proving that you're stupid idiots.

We're not idiots. Please drop that idea. Esteel used to make this complaint as well, that we had our "chance" to test it and nobody did. It's not our fault that we didn't test it. It's certainly not for a lack of willingness. The process and communication surrounding testing is not defined. This was the issue I raised when I brought up the idea of the Developer blog. There is poor communication between those who are developing the game (mostly div, but also a few others who occasionally apply patches, sounds, models, etc) and those who are willing and able to test those new additions.

There are lots of examples of this. The crylink changes were a big one. Another example is the ballistics changes. I heard about this ballistics only stuff a few days ago. I didn't know anyone needed testing done. If there is a new change to the game that needs testing, I could gather probably 30 people or more that would be willing to test it out. I would go through the community and say "hey guys, this needs to be tested". Of course, we would need an outline of how to properly test things and how to report the results. We would need to know where to send our feedback.

But right now, we don't have any process for this.

[divVerent]

If we'd ask everyone about every single change, we'd not get anything done at all. So forget that.

If you watch development on the experimental servers and in the svn commit log, you see what happens and can give feedback. If you don't, your fault.

Don't waste the time of the developers by this. The blog idea may be good, but there's nobody willing to write for it.

Another thing: the general unfriendliness of this community isn't exactly an incentive to communicate with it. "Asking the community" results in threads full of flamewars, but never in any decision. So why bother at all. Do whatever one pleases is the best thing to do in this situation - at least until the community gets better.

[ai]

Well, I do agree that it would be cool and nice if there were more openly talk about what's new and what needs testing. A developer blog I believe could, or would, take too much time from the actual developers. One solution was to assign one ore more people that are honestly and sincerely dedicated to updating that blog, as 'frontliners' (call them whatever you want). Meaning, they would try to talk and gather any new information by talking to the devs on what's new and what to come. Then the devs won't have to put extra effort in writing stuff up or maintaining that blog, it would be these journalists jobs.
They could gather information from IRC, PMs, browsing forums and even trying out new stuff on the SVN servers.

However, that might be too big of a task for a few individuals, and if they quit or gets fed up it all will go down. So another solution could be just opening a 'Feature Testing' category on the forums where more major changes and stuff are done, posted and feedback can be given.
So, when introducing new (major) changes to the SVN servers that would require feedback, post a topic about it and people can give their feedback.

These are just a few thoughts, I'm not saying anything should get done right now and I certainly don't demand or want to cause any trouble or more work for anyone. Just giving my 2 cents (or in my case 50 'öre' or perhaps 1 'krona').

[morfar]

I certainly agree that the communication should be open. This is an open source project after all.
Simple bug fixes or small features don't really need a forum post or something like that.

Gameplay changes should be discussed, even though it tends to get a flame war (Alien).
I understand Dokujisan. And I think divVerent is overly pessimistic about this issue

I was positive about a dev blog in previous thread. And I may willing to contribute (not alone! ).

[divVerent]

Well, what IS a major change? How do you know IN ADVANCE? Especially in case of the MG/SG thing, I still don't believe it is a major thing for the intended short-range use of these guns.

Running the change on a server for some time, seeing that nobody complains or even notices should be taken as a good sign that the change is NOT a major one, and should NOT need much testing.

[ai]

Changing weapons and physics are part of the major changes even if they don't seem like it. Like changing speed, damage pickups etc. Adding weapons and removing them is also a rather big change. Adding game modes like Nexball, Assault, ONS etc. are big
Stuff like this you know.

[Dokujisan]

Don't waste the time of the developers by this. The blog idea may be good, but there's nobody willing to write for it.

I'm ultimately suggesting to save you time by making the testing process more efficient. Think about how much time has been wasted in conversations in IRC and on the forums related to controversial development decisions. You suggest to check the SVN logs. That means we have to find out about big development decisions after they are implemented?

Unfortunately, the whole development blog idea was very misunderstood by lots of people. It would have saved divverent loads of time and effort in communicating with the rest of us. It would have kept all of us informed about what was being considered for development, what is currently being worked, and what has been implemented in SVN. The developer blog idea was shot down. So instead of using that tool to help with the bulk of our communication problems, let's figure out something to help a sub-section of our communication problems....testing.

Let divverent be a programmer. Recruit more people from within the community to offload some of the communication hassle. If Nexuiz was a corporation, it would have an empty building with divverents office at the top and no secretary, no officers, no assistants. He would answer his own calls. He would write his own memos. He would do his own accounting. He would do his own advertising. There would be a hundred of us regular Nexuiz people standing around twiddling our thumbs wishing that we could help out.

There are lots of possibilities when you start recruiting people from within the community. A few people could stay in close communication with div and help decide on what needs testing and what doesn't. Then perhaps those people could inform others (like me) and we can gather people for testing. Then we could follow some process to report our feedback. We could help get some things done.

[ai]

So with other words. Who are up to the task of being an informant, i.e. staying close to the devs, fishing for information and reporting those back to the community.

People willing so far:
Morfar (but only if more people join)
Dokujisan ?
I coould help out on a small corner (not positive), I sometimes have info which even morfar doesn't know about ^_^

[Dokujisan]

yes, that's what I mean.

Also pavlvs would be very interested. Here is what he just told me in IRC.

[19:15] <pavlvs|INclass> Dokujisan: yeah, ive been wanting the dev blog ;p
[19:15] <pavlvs|INclass> mostly i want to inform the public of the changes that go on in svn
[19:16] <pavlvs|INclass> the importance of this and the current lack of it were both shown by the recent blowup over the ballistic bullets

I think c.brutail said he would contribute. There were a couple others in that other thread that showed interest in contributing. I could gather an official list.

Well, if I had my way, the blog should be "Nexuiz news" and be located at http://news.nexuiz.com. It would contain blog entries covering various "developments" that aren't necessarily QuakeC oriented. A good example of this is the new CTF flag model that you did. The blog entries would be linked to forum threads if people wanted to discuss the topic further. This would bring more attention to really important topics.

[PinkRobot]

Well, to keep track of dev news maybe it's a good idea if even more people check into the #pb.nexuiz channel?

Which since RBI-You-Know-Who has joined PB, has already gathered an amazing amount of guests. People who were funnily enough never that interested in our clan before (would you believe it!).

(I would like to mention Ronan and Mirio though, who have been with us for I don't know how long and did not just drop by because of Div0, you two rule! Ronan, you even helped us the day we started #brlogenshfegle!)

Unfortunately, this has also meant that this channell has now also turned into a parttime flamewar-asshat-fest with some of the community's top contributors joining hands to make even that channel not feel much like home anymore. I guess the only place where I can feel the good old Nexuiz spirit live on is DCC's Plain Delight server. I'm so happy CTF is top dog and DM is its uninteresting half brother, because the trolls go where the crowd is.