New weaponmodels

[C.Brutail]

Speaking f weapons... am I the only one, who has some odd memories... ?

[cortez]

Speaking f weapons... am I the only one, who has some odd memories... ?

yes you are.

[Alien]

(It would be interesting too if weapon models could have "attachments" that enabled modes, but that's probably more complicated than anyone would be willing to code right now.)

I was interested in doing this (super shotgun attachment) when div suggested me to code an upgrade for shotgun if I want it to act as a proper one. But I doubt he'll agree with the weapon system replacement cause in some article even lordhavoc said that nexuiz weapon system has been rewritten at least three times and current one is thought as the most robust. For me it seems impossible to add new weapons over old ones as upgrades cause each new weapon should be registered, have it's own slot, etc...

More insight welcome.

Is that the edge?

[terencehill]

Well, i would dare to personally come up with the idea of merging the hagar and tag, and the reason is because we have 2 underused models, with 1-1 technically not too usable secondary fire mode. So they could be merged into a new hagar, thats primary is the current TAGs primary, and the secondary is the old hagars primary. And the model could be the 2.5s new hagar. It could shoot 3 (stronger) homing rockets from the 3 barrel it has, so it could also make sense. This would result a strong and very usable weapon for close and midle range. Im not sure it worth to have another weapon reasoning 2 semi used weapons, it would also be more newbie friendly to get know fewer weapons. Just compare current hagars primary with hlac primary, and also with TAGs secondary. The difference is not too big. Maybe its time for some weapon optimization. that would result a weapon deserving the placement of #8 in the arsenal

I agree. The best thing to do. the tag secondary it's only good to scare the player coming to you so he feels pain and kills you with a precise nex shot. The hagar secondary... I think I used it less than 10 times in game. This suffices to say: remove it.

[tundramagi]

No. Don't remove it. Make it bounce one more time mabe. Don't merge the two weapons.
Just because YOU do not use it, Just because YOU do not put it in your maps doesn't mean other peeps don't. I put the hagar in my maps alot, also the seeker. The hagar for medium weapon that is somewhat accurate, and the tag for a defence or heavy hitting weapon is great. They are both diffrent and it is GOOD to have variety.

There is no reason to remove weapons anymore. If you do not want to use a weapon in your map than don't use that weapon... but don't screw things up for other mappers.

The TAGs secondary is also a feature that i think noone would miss, it is meant to work as an anti-rocket, but the problem is that on a NORMAL map (not a giga-mega-huge, relatively empty one) you just take a close corner and you already escaped TAGs primary rockets. If its shot from distance you terminate them with rocketlauncher before they reach you. And it doesnt protect against rocket missiles either.

I respectfully disagree and would like to point out that more weapon choice enables more thoughtfully balanced maps (edited by SavageX)

[divVerent]

Well, i would dare to personally come up with the idea of merging the hagar and tag, and the reason is because we have 2 underused models, with 1-1 technically not too usable secondary fire mode.

I disagree.

First of all, the hybrid hagar+seeker would be just too strong. Hagar already is one of the top weapons (for its high damage per second), and this would make it just insanely powerful (probably more than the nex, even). To balance that hybrid again, you'd have to reduce the damage of the hagar, and of the seeker missiles, which will lose the most important point of the hagar: its high dps value, which makes it the perfect choice for destroying objectives or turrets (camping rifle secondary exceeds hagar's dps, but only in short bursts, and it eats bullets like hell, which makes CR secondary a bad choice to destroy high health objectives).

Secondly, hagar secondary is very useful, but you need to learn it. Mainly good for blocking entrances, or for surprising campers (it's easier to aim than the electro secondary or grenades if you know where the camper is, but don't see him). For wide scale destruction, it often is good to alternate between primary and secondary.

Thirdly, seeker secondary is even more useful. It is not just a rocket shield, but also is a very cheap and safe damage inflictor e.g. for objectives in assault and onslaught. It has more damage per second than the RL and the mortar, and is quite safe to use on objectives. Only the hagar has more damage per second. Also, I found out that it often is a nice shotgun alternative in close fights.

BTW, it IS working even against rocket launcher rockets. You ought to walk backwards while using it as a shield.

[FraNcoTirAdoR]

Just because YOU do not use it, Just because YOU do not put it in your maps doesn't mean other peeps don't.

Its not about me not using it, it about noone using it, especially not using it effectively at all. You need to know the exect position of the enemy behind the corner, and also need to hit the wall in a proper angle while standing on a proper place. Making this little mathematical calculation (with gigantic miss factor since you never know the exact position of an enemy behind a corner, if there is enemy at all) makes it impossible to maintain fluid and effective game. Its working very well with electro because it has huge splash radious, and it working with mortar because it bounces multiple times, so it has more chance to hit the opponent.

There is no reason to remove weapons anymore. If you do not want to use a weapon in your map than don't use that weapon... but don't screw things up for other mappers.

Seems like you are really missing the point, I could only repeat the first sentence what I said. There is no selfishness, like "ohh noobs pwning me with hagar pleeeeease remove it", but I see 2 completely useless functions for all, and not just for me. I NEVER saw a hagar secondary frag during this 1,5 year of time i played this game.
Also it wouldnt break 99% of the maps since they are still containing shared hagar/tag spawnpoints.

First of all, the hybrid hagar+seeker would be just too strong. Hagar already is one of the top weapons (for its high damage per second), and this would make it just insanely powerful (probably more than the nex, even)..

I agree with that divVerent, but then dont put TAG in the weapon queue to the #8th place, OVER nex and mortar, because looking at the weapon order with a newbie-eye i would think that the lowest ranked weapons in number are weaker than highest. Thats why nex and rocketlauncher is so high, am I right? So #8 indicates a REAL pwnage weapon. Well this is kinda strong to say on the current TAG. Put TAG to #4 accompanied with mortar (lol mortar should be on #8 instead because of its extremely wide-usability) to make it looks somewhat real. Also the function of hagar is to be a confusing weapon as it was said many times, a hybrid TAG + hagar really would be that by using both fire mode in combination.

You counted mathematically the strenght of hagar secondary, but I would like to suggest to add much more factors depending on usablility so it would reflect the usage of weapons much better. Just look at the weapon matrix and you will see that TAG is at the bottom, tho' you said it has huge damage per sec. And im sure that those frags were mostly made by the primary mode.
These factors should be multipliers like:
- spread (dont know if you count with it, if not its a HUGE problem then)
- bounce or not
- speed of the bullet
- antilagged or not
- can be effected when to explode (like RL, electro)
- size of the effective range
- push (/negative push) of the hit

Count with these on TAG:
- HUGE spread, very low multiplicater
- It doesnt bounce, also bad multiplicator
- speed of the bullet: well its okey
- antilagged: this case it doesnt count
- cant be effected when to explode, bad multiplicator
- size of the effective range is VERY small, so bad multiplicator
- the push isnt so significant, and when it pushes, it pushes out of its range often lol

This would give out that the usablity of TAG secondary is very very low, as it is reflected properly on the damage matrix you already showed. I tested wether it deflects rockets but it doesnt change their angle much enough so they still dont damage big after the opponent blows it up with secondary.

*admin-edit* merged two posts

[tundramagi]

I kill peeps with the hagar secondary all the time, you're just a poor player and a rail-bitch.

"OMG t3h math!" Yea that's what a brain is for, which you don't use. If you do the calcs often enough it's easy as the brain is used to it.

"Take this out because ------> I <------ THINK it's useless"
Yea, that's not "selfish" at all.

How about this, you do something useful like make something (map, model, code, anything) rather than begging for the removal of weapons. GUESS WHAT: there are MORE than nine weapon spots now. We don't NEED to REMOVE weapons YOU don't like to make room for weapons YOU do like.. we can just add the new weapon. How about not being a selfish git for once?

Na, will never happen, you'll always be demanding that whatever game you're using be tailored to you and damn all others, PURELY because you want it that way and NOT because other things need to be removed to add the things you would like.

If you're just going to complain about garbage could you please complain to a concrete wall instead? And don't give garbage about "constructive criticism" the __ONLY__ constructive criticism in an OPEN SOURCE project IS YOU CONSTRUCTING SOMETHING (the thing you want).

That's how OSS works: you want something... make it.
And if you want to REMOVE something someone else made and enjoys because YOU don't like it... well go run off a cliff.

[ai]

First of, Franco. Don't bother arguing with MikeeUSA/Tundramagi/100+Nicks. There's really no point in it, he just spews out the same things over and over.

Anyway, I happen to agree with Franco. I do like his idea to merge the Hagar and the TAG. If it do get too powerful then it could easily be adjusted. Not only lowering damage but lowering the refire rate of the multi-rocket and/or remove one TAG rocket, increase spread and many other things could be done. Yes, this probably would take away much of the two current weapons, but instead of having two hardly used weapons, why not have one that could be used more? Of course, this would be up for tests and see if people would actually use it.
Me personally basically pick up these weapons only to feed more rocket ammo for the other rocket consuming weapons.

To those who wonder (mike included), it's not such a good idea to add another weapon which basically is Hagar and TAG merged as it will be too similar to the current Hagar and TAG. Why have two weapons with TAG ability, or two weapons with the exact same Hagar rocket spam?
One last thing, nothing said about this have I considered a 'demand'. I see these as suggestions and comments. No one is saying 'Do this naow!!11one!!"

PS. I do actually like the secondary of the TAG, but you rarely ever use it. I did try it as an alternative shotgun but it's a bit unpredictable and doesn't make as much damage (now I don't know it's damage compared to the shotty, but when I used it I got many hits without the people dying. I on the other hand seem to die rather quickly from this ). Also, if the enemy gets outside the range of that rocket inferno you'd lose precious time when switching to a longer range weapon as you hardly try to hit with the TAG and even if you do successfully hit him, in a closed off map they'd be rendered useless. You pretty much have to switch to another weapon unless you want to play with lady of luck.

This is my take on these/this weapon(s).

[tundramagi]

AI is just agreeing with Frac because Franc's opinion is the opposite of mine and AI will take any position that is the opposite. Previously he had no opinion surely.

AI: if there's a weapon you want then you go and make it, don't call for the screwing up of weapons other people made. The hagar and the TAG are diffrent weapons and used for diffrent fighting styles. Your opinions against the weapons are without merit.

but instead of having two hardly used weapons, why not have one that could be used more? Of course, this would be up for tests and see if people would actually use it.

For the SAME REASON that nexuiz consists of MORE THAN ONLY THE NEX AND LASER.

Some people don't want to be constrained by your "lets merge weapons, get rid of functionality, get rid of variety" ideas. Ofcourse you will keep pushing and pushing untill you get your way of REMOVING things from the game so there's almost no point arguing this because you WILL get your way. It's most unfortunate that there is an impetus to cave to such desires. The only thing that should be done is additions to the game, not removals... but some people who must "refine" everything (of the same class who must create and try to enforce naming conventions on pk3s) just NEED to have their way or else this "sculpture" they think they're making of nexuiz will be imperfect in their minds eye.

How about, AI and Frac, you code things you want (not removing things). If you do that you will find that you no longer need perfection and no longer will desire to remove other peoples contributions.

You two are selfish for wanting to remove/merge these weapons JUST because YOU DON'T USE THEM / It doesn't fit your LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR playing style.

And you will push and push untill it is done. Maybe you will even feign disintrest in making any more contributions to the project untill your demands are met. Maybe you will bring up your ideas of removal every chance you can edge them into a discussion.

Infact... wasn't this discussion about morph's nice new weapon models... and then it turned into "lets remove other people's weapons!!!".

PS: any game designed by committie sucks because it becomes all middle-of-the road lowest-common-denomiator-pandering crap... which is what YOU AND FRAC what nexuiz to be.

"Oh the idiot players don't use the Tag seeker secondary too much because they perfer the nex or rocket laucher.... so remove it!!!11ONE ONE"

Screw you.
If YOU have an idea for a weapon of your own, Frac, AI, how about you go into the code and create it rather than trying to whittle down other people's weapons. How about you do that? Why don't you do that... ah because you don't have the "time" to "learn".

Because you'd rather "suggest" things to other people and make them do it.
You don't even think about how the new weapons help mappers.

The TAG is a great strong + defensive weapon which one can put in map areas you want a defender to have an advantage.

The hagar is a nice mid to far range weapon where you want a defender to beable to fend off far ranging attackers or have an attacker "bomb snipe" defenders.

But no you'd take both of those away from the mapper and merge them into one.
How about you make a weapon, by yourself, that will fill whatever role your thinking about rather than corrupting the functions of other people's weapons because YOU cannot think of anything other than WHAT IS SHOWN TO YOU. You can't come up with an original idea for a nexuiz weapon that would fill the role you think is unfilled...
...
...
Instead the idea you come up with is to remove and merge...

Oh and you admid you're a rocket whore so why should anyone listen to your "idea"?
(Because you'll promote it at every turn and the only way to get you to stop doing so will be to implement it... that's how other people get what they want aswell...)