Singleplayer Story Mode - Ideas/Development [Spoilers!]

[Flying Steel]

Woah. Its gonna take me a while to get to grips with that.

Yeah, I based the amount of new concepts and twists it contains to be roughly similar to the quantity found in the original Starcraft campaign. I like that feeling of "being on a 'ride".


When you feel like you've had enough time to digest the story, I'll post the level / gameplay table, which is basically the outline for how to implement the campaign in the game.

Next comes character creation / detailing and dialogue writing plus preliminary level drafting and art style sketching and any voice acting auditions.

When that is done we will be at the point where we could really use some support from coders.

Started reading, but stopped cause I don't want to be spoiled if this ever becomes the official single player story line. Looking good from what I did read, though.

That is totally okay. If everyone read this, it'd ruin alot of the impact when people play after this is implemented.

Good work Flying Steel!! The mech looks like Metal Gear lol! Maybe we can do it like Gears of War 2 style? You know, sawing through the heart of the worm.....

Thanks. Never played either Gears of War game though, so you'd have to explain to me what you mean.

[ai]

To be honest, the alien creature may be a nice concept if it gets a chance to build on that, but the model is not looking so hot. The thing doesn't have any anatomy that makes sense and the smooth approach on this one as well give it a ugly look. The mouth itself is incorrect perceived and it's actually the result of how polygon smoothing works, not something that would actually be on a anatomic alien. Cartoons have those kind of mouths in certain times when they talk or certain situations (like fan blowing into mouth), not by standard.
The eyes (I believe it is) is same story there, it's the result of poly smoothing and not enough forethought on the actual concept.

I'm sorry to say it, but the entire model is amateurish and looks more like when people new to 3D play around with certain tools and adds stuff (like those, I believe it's supposed to be, weapons).
I don't mean anything bad by it but that's how it comes across to me.

*The mech hasn't changed much from last time and I've already commented on that.

[Flying Steel]

To be honest, the alien creature may be a nice concept if it gets a chance to build on that, but the model is not looking so hot. The thing doesn't have any anatomy that makes sense and the smooth approach on this one as well give it a ugly look.

IMO, if you want to make a 3 million poly model and sculpt it, only to use that to bake a normal map to the in-game mesh, that is an option, and the one used by the commercial game industry.

But if you use subsurf to create the higher res mesh (which corrects artifacts and inherits the uv unwrapping) and apply a GIMPed bumpmap to it for the fine details, I believe that buys you a similar or the same result at a much better price.


In short, don't worry about it being too smooth, because I haven't touched the UVs yet, which means I can't apply a detail bump map, which I need using this method for it to look anything but smooth in the WIPs. And it won't be smooth in the end- it is based off of Echinoderms, whose names means spiny skin or something.

The mouth itself is incorrect perceived and it's actually the result of how polygon smoothing works, not something that would actually be on a anatomic alien. Cartoons have those kind of mouths in certain times when they talk or certain situations (like fan blowing into mouth), not by standard.

This is my plan for the mouth- make it black in diffuse and gloss so you can't see into it, so it looks there's a digestive track going down there.

As for the "cheeks", those I was planning on working on some more, so yeah I agree.

Crackers, Gromit!

The eyes (I believe it is) is same story there, it's the result of poly smoothing and not enough forethought on the actual concept.

It actually has no eyes. Those are heat pits, like those on snakes. Totally different look and structure from eyes.

That said, I'm thinking the outer heat pits need to look more like the inner ones, because they might seem too much like poly smoothing I think as well.

I'm sorry to say it, but the entire model is amateurish and looks more like when people new to 3D play around with certain tools and adds stuff (like those, I believe it's supposed to be, weapons).
I don't mean anything bad by it but that's how it comes across to me.

What weapons?

IMO, we have to separate our technical analysis of graphics from how they look and feel to normal people. People can't see subsurface and sculpt modeling, they only see something that looks real or surreal or craplike, like other games or not. And it either does it for them or it doesn't.

I don't want to win an industry awards here for technique, I just want these to look good from the aesthetic perspective of most players, when they are complete. I want them to look impressive, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to go so far past the point of diminshing returns and end up with too few meshes to really improve the game where it is lacking.


I hope this isn't all coming across too defensive or anything, I just feel we each have very different perspectives and ways of accomplishing the things we each want to accomplish, and so I'm trying to explain mine.

*The mech hasn't changed much from last time and I've already commented on that.

The 'mech' was there for reference, the UGV next to it on the treads was the new "character class" model being revealed.

Since most of the feedback on the mech has been positive (regarding the edge hardness it seems to me as well) I'll probably go with the look of one of the two options I posted in that comparison screen I rendered earlier in this thread (one was harder and one was softer).

[ai]

I wasn't talking about techniques with the alien model. Nothing to do with 3 millino polys or subsurface. I meant the entire model looks ugly and too amateurish (regardless of technique you used). That critique I gave was mostly so that you'd understand how to fix it. I've been imagining this model with a super awesome texture, yet I cannot picture it as the model itself isn't good enough.
It's in the same class as the current player models Nexuiz uses, and everyone thinks they could be much much better.

Look, I know I cannot force you to change these things but you don't seem to listen to critique that much and in fact do defend even bad models. Sure, there are always people who will like any kind of models, but the more experienced artists will look at it differently. Actually, none beside me, of the more experienced artists here has commented on these.

I'm giving you an opportunity to evolve, of course, whether you take the advice or not is up to you. You could be a good 3D artist but in order to do that you'd have to listen to critique and not only the ones that you agree with.

[Flying Steel]

I wasn't talking about techniques with the alien model. Nothing to do with 3 millino polys or subsurface. I meant the entire model looks ugly and too amateurish (regardless of technique you used). That critique I gave was mostly so that you'd understand how to fix it. I've been imagining this model with a super awesome texture, yet I cannot picture it as the model itself isn't good enough.

I'm thinking about re-allocating its details so I can improve some of these issues, but I can't exceed the 5000 tri limit for the upper LoD, so you can't expect too much detail, otherwise this won't be considered acceptable for the game.

Look, I know I cannot force you to change these things but you don't seem to listen to critique that much and in fact do defend even bad models.

I only explain elements of these models to you because they just don't look altogether bad to me, they look like WIPs, but not bad models. If I could see them as bad, I wouldn't defend them.

Also while I respect what you have contributed to the game for all of us to enjoy, that doesn't mean that I'm going to necessarily make changes you alone have suggested that don't feel right to me and that aren't backed up by the opinions expressed by anyone else in the community, at that time.

When I start getting more complaints or suggestions similar to yours, that is an indicator to me that there's problems there.

Sure, there are always people who will like any kind of models, but the more experienced artists will look at it differently.

So should the more experienced artists' opinions matter to me the most or should I be more concerned with what the community in general feels?

Actually, none beside me, of the more experienced artists here has commented on these.

Which tells me nothing, though.

Maybe the silence means they feel these models are beyond repair, maybe it indicates silent approval, maybe it means they didn't expect to find these in a spoiler shielded campaign discussion thread and haven't seen them or maybe they are on vacation.

I simply can't tell what someone is thinking unless they tell it to me.

BTW, isn't it just you and Morphed who have contributed models to the game in any recent time?

I'm giving you an opportunity to evolve, of course, whether you take the advice or not is up to you.

To want to take on a personal evolution, I'd need to know where exactly it would be taking me.

You could be a good 3D artist but in order to do that you'd have to listen to critique and not only the ones that you agree with.

There's a difference between listening and blindly following is all I'm saying. But as more folks offer critiques, I will be more inclined to follow them, even if I don't agree with them.

[Flying Steel]

Fixed mouth issue with Hallurchin WIP. Modified heat pits.

[Sepelio]

Just out of curiosity, being that these creatures appear to have little or no joined/opposable limbs how do they do anything?

Also, whats with the tube like things sticking out of its face? What are they for, they dont seem to fit with the rest of the critter. I'm hoping they are tubas

[Mizu Kitsune]

i have a question, how will level change work. slip gate? hl1 ingame level transfer style? will the player have to load maps like the current campaign does, then spawn without their shit like what happens with a slip gate or will it be like hl1+ where it simply said "loading..." in center screen and player position and iventory never changed as well as npc position?

[Flying Steel]

Just out of curiosity, being that these creatures appear to have little or no joined/opposable limbs how do they do anything?

They move using those spines which can be rotated swiftly at their base (those protusions that they project from are flexible, like the arms of a starfish or serpent star). I was basing their form of locomotion heavily on that of the faster real world Sea Urchins that I understand move on their spines alone or almost so, instead of using a mixture of their spines and tube feet for locomotion. Some examples:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0563&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHP9km0KHKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTyo5DtVvdw

This crazy and poorly understood ancient thing was also a noteworthy influence on the Hallurchin design:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucigenia

Also, whats with the tube like things sticking out of its face?

Those are tube feet, basically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seeig ... licien2005).jpg

Tube feet are the only means of locomotion for starfish as well as a partial means of locomotion for the slower sea urchines, but for sea urchins and serpent stars especially, they are used as arms and hands to pick things up like food.

What are they for, they dont seem to fit with the rest of the critter. I'm hoping they are tubas

Yeah, they definitely don't look like they fit atm, but I am hoping that that is because they are still in a "pose posture" (can't recall the correct term, atm) which is a technical aspect of character modeling.

In game, if they were holding no weapon or other object, those things would retract almost back into the creature, so to speak. And if they were wielding a weapon let's say, those thing would be grabbing onto four different parts of it almost like tentacles with sunction cups at the ends (only).

Later I will do a quick test rig and pose those tube arms with it holding a weapon so we can see and decide if it looks bad and unfitting or works well enough to keep.


Either way, this model will need something for grasping and wielding weapons in the game, which is one of the requirements for player models:

1) Must conform well to a 2 meter high, 1 meter wide and 1 meter long bounding box.
2) Must have a means of locomotion.
3) Must have a means of wielding weapons.
0) If possible, benefits from having a visible weakness at the top for Camping Rifle "Headshots".

So they are mainly there to fullfill requirement #3 by acting as arms and hands that wield weapons.

[Flying Steel]

i have a question, how will level change work. slip gate? hl1 ingame level transfer style? will the player have to load maps like the current campaign does, then spawn without their shit like what happens with a slip gate or will it be like hl1+ where it simply said "loading..." in center screen and player position and iventory never changed as well as npc position?

If ai's impression is the case and there are influental elements of the Dev team that are opposed to a more robust campaign system, then it will probably be more like the current campaign system so that they don't have to worry about doing much of any more work maintaining it or whatever, and it can be commited to trunk at some point.

But if there is no resistance or it changes over time or after we show that we can make it a reality, then it depends more on how far whichever coders are working on it (like Mircea and tZork let's say) want to take it.