Proposal: adding new ammo for Nex

[C.Brutail]

As the weapon system will be totally different in new releases (which I already hate tbh, but that's another matter), I think this might be a good opportunity to redefine ammo system too, at least for the Nex.
One of the main reasons imho why the Nex is soo overpowered, is because it shares the same ammo with 3 other weapons - Crylink, Electro, HLAC. This means if you pick up ammo for those weapons, or the weapons alone, you get ammo, so it's very easy to stack up ammo, and it's cheap to use.

My proposal is to add another ammo type for the Nex. In the Quake series, where the Railgun stands for the same purpose ammo is very scare for the weapon, you can't have nearly infinite shots, ammo count is limited in relation the damage it can do. Realy, ask yourselfs, in case you didn't camp, when was the last time you've ran out of ammo for the Nex?

I realise adding a new ammo type would break all maps stock and third party, and also it'll be a huge work to migrate them, the code needs to be written, a good looking model needs to be created etc. etc... but I offer my services for the work: I can take my part, I know how to map, maybe I know a little bit about balanced item placement (and also, I'm not afraid to ask better players for advice), so in case this idea goes through, I'm here to migrate ALL stock maps and the popular third party ones too. (think about it, this is a one in a lifetime offering, you can't miss the opportunity ).

Advices, ideas, cultivated discussion of the topic is welcomed.

[ai]

I support this idea completely.

[paperclips]

yarr, I support this, so I does.

[Flying Steel]

Meh, this seems like a messy solution.

Basically it is enabling the Nex gun to remain an imbalanced "Uber" weapon because its ammo is limited while all the other weapons have to play by the normal rules. No other weapon gets this kind of special treatment (shotgun included, since its actually underpowered).

IMO, better solutions would be:

1) Just make it do less damage until it becomes balanced, maybe between 80-100 damage if need be.

2) Make it consume more cell ammo, like 10.

3) Accept that the Rifle is just better balanced to be the sniper weapon with its head shot damage and ability to shoot through walls. Then make it look like a railgun and call / think of the Nex as a particle beam battle rifle instead.

4) Just let 2.6 turn the Nex into an uber assault/battle rifle instead of an uber sniper rifle so that it consumes more ammo but remains fierce. Or port over the 2.6 Nex into whatever balance mod you prefer.

[ai]

You seem to miss one point there Flying. If one where to increase Nex ammo consumption all the other weapons that uses the same ammo would be affected, the other weapons shouldn't have to suffer because of Nex.
Besides, "messy" solution or not, if Brutail offered to do this then might as well give it a shot. Not like you would do the work and it wouldn't affect you whatsoever.
People have in the past suggested a separate ammo for the Nex, but there was no one that would volunteer to do the work, now that someone has come fourth one shouldn't try to beat it down.

[C.Brutail]

Hm... let's not get cocky on eachother (although I agree with ai )

Also, I totally dislike the idea of nerfing the nex. I don't have anything against it's damage on one hit. It was ment to be a powerful weapon, so let it be a powerful weapon!
My problem is the fact that once you get your hands on it, you can spam with it, because you have nearly endless ammo suply.

[Flying Steel]

I don't want to put a stick in everyone's spokes, it just seems like this grazes the problem without actually killing it.

No other weapon becomes imbalancingly overpowered when you have a lot of ammo for it, except for the Nex. Which means that for however long or short a while you have it for, you have a distinct advantage over everyone else, which no other weapon provides in 2.5 balance, only quad damage (which is at least time limited). Back in 2.3, the Nex shared the power with the RL and MG, forming a triumvirate of "heavy" weapons that were more powerful and desired than the rest. But this isn't the case anymore, all weapons are being balanced to be equally useful and powerful, with the Nex being the only weapon left that is still a little overpowered.

Plus if it's ammo is less common then we won't get to use it as much, and it is fun to use despite the remaining imbalance.

So IMO, I'd rather see something like a 100 damage, 2 second refire Nex than a new ammo type.


Or if you want to play with ammo types, maybe:

1) Make the Nex use Ballistic ammo. It's more rare and all ballistic weapons share the Nex' hitscan factor that is overpowering on the new open terrain maps (which usually neglect ballistic weapons as a result). This also makes sense because a railgun is a ballistic weapon, not a particle or directed energy weapon.

2) Get rid of general purpose ammo. Each weapon uses its own kind of ammo that can only be acquired by picking up that weapon again. A lot of games do it this way and it gives mappers control over every weapon and its ammo supply precisely. Besides, how does being able to use mortar ammo in a rocket launcher but not in an electro make the game better in any way?

This second idea wasn't as much of an option before because it'd require an overhaul of all the maps, but if that is a price willing to be paid then this might make more sense now.

[tZork]

Just because most maps wave to much ammo don't mean balancing tough ammo availability is bad. And 2s refire sounds like a crappy deal. in numbers its 50 dps, machine gun for example does 150 dps. (2.5.2). The nexgun is already castrated enough; 100 dmg over 1.5s is a measly 66.7 dps.

Ballistic and newtonian trajectories are things that sound kool and feel like shit in game. its supposed to be fun to play, not a lecture in how hard it is to aim in reality. If you don't want your open map to be dominated by the nexgun, don't put it there.

The reason for nexuiz not having more ammo types are (iirc) that Vermeulen wanted it this way. I have no idea why. Personally im all for more ammo types.

On a side note, this discussion may be preddy pointless since it looks like 2.6 will change the nexgun to some lame shock rifle like thing.

[halogene]

Although I totally support C.Brutail's idea and really appreciate the offer to adapt the maps to a new ammo type for the nex, I fear that tZork is right. In my opinion the weapon balance in 2.5.1 only needed rebalancing regarding the nex and I believe that a new ammo type might have done the job just well. But since I read now on varius occasions that 2.6 balancing will be completely different and that the nex will be reduced to some kind of shock rifle, I do not see the point in spending so much effort in redoing the maps.

On a side note, has anyone thought about the nex weapon being (supposedly) one of the most powerful weapons in Nexuiz, because the name of the game derives from this weapon? Might be historically other way round though, but to me this was always some sort of connection. Just a thought. I never liked UT's shock rifle...

I can't say if I will like the new balance in 2.6, but I will get used to it, I suppose. And if not, who cares, anyway?

[tZork]

Not sure abt its power being derived from its namesake, the game. But ever since 1.0 its got more and more neutered. In 1.0 it did 200 dmg with a 1s refire (mind you it was lots harder to aim with back then)