Proposal: adding new ammo for Nex

[Samual]

I really don't like this actually.... As the only changes MY balance does is lower damage and force based on distance. But this is something that can't be controlled by a cvar, so again-- Very against it. Also, my balance uses 6 ammo per shot..... With a start of 90 damage and a halflife of 1500qu, this is perfectly fair damage-wise. Other problems with this idea: Fitting new ammo on the HUD--- As we would need an ENTIRELY new ammo, JUST for the Nex.

I instead propose what my balance does.... Cap ammo to a maximum value, and use more ammo for the Nex... Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps... Not only is this far easier to accomplish, it does the job in a better way. LordHavoc used some of that with his balance for 2.6, so I don't see a problem at all here.

P.S.: If you want to try my balance, exec balanceSamual.cfg in latest SVN... (2.5.2 has an outdated one, so don't use that)

[Sven]

no i dont think its a good idea to make a new ammo... because the gameplay would be suffer by doing this much people already dislike the new physics so making for each weapon a specific amm wouldnt be good you can increase the ammo per shot , so PLEASE NO NEW AMMOTYPE !
its not bad that the nex shares the ammo with the other because you dont shoot with Crylink, Electro, HLAC and Nex at the same time in ut99 every weapon has a own ammo type but in this game its not bad because its not so much an jump and run shooter as nexuiz and the slogan is: simple, fast, intense and completly free, or?
nex would be slower and the simpleness would be decreased...

so my solution for all... more the nex-ammo lovers: making the ammo as a seperate mutator would be the best for all

so mutator tick-box:

(O) noramal
[O] nex seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
...
(O) each weapon seperate ammo
(O) ammo regenerates automaticly

so you can choose it

from the [O] you can choose more then 1, the (O) you can choose 1 and no from the pther (x wwould be choosen and o unchoosen or whatelse...)

but maybe make a seperate ammo for the super weapons (hook, fireball, porto)

lg,
Sven

[C.Brutail]

Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps

Imho this destroys the purpose of the gun itself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfetly ok with the damage that the Nex does, and I like the whole 2.5.2 weapon balance (with the hotfixes ofc.) as they are.
I just thought there were times when lot people complained about the weapon. I've just proposed a different solution next to nerfing / change weapon behavior.

[Flying Steel]

Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps

Imho this destroys the purpose of the gun itself.

You could also have it do more damage over distance, with the code that's already in place in 2.5.2 I believe, using the console or configuration file.

[PCLizard]

(shotgun included, since its actually underpowered).

Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2. It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with. Spawn frags are a common thing in ctf and 1v1 matches with 2.5.2 shotgun, probably because of the improved antilag.

And I'm completely for having separate ammo for nex. Nex is way overused and does a lot of damage for a simple shot, and because the delay for a weapon switch from nex (after being shot) to another weapon is so short, you can do a ton amount of damage within a short amount of time. With nex ammo, I think you can limit this. With nex ammo on duel maps for example, if you wanted to whore the nex with other weapon combos, you would have to control the ammo on that map, instead of picking up an electro or crylink. In ctf, you would have to be conservative of nex ammo if you wanted to nex whore all match as well.

[Flying Steel]

Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

[PCLizard]

Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

I see no sense in picking up any other weapon now that the shotgun is much stronger now. You can literally take a fully stacked player down to nothing within seconds after spawning.

Except for the shotgun, I say.

How so?

[Flying Steel]

I see no sense in picking up any other weapon now that the shotgun is much stronger now. You can literally take a fully stacked player down to nothing within seconds after spawning.

By that logic you'd also have to see no point in picking up any weapon after the first.


But most players pick up weapons for two reasons- more versatility and more ammo.

Versatility: The shotgun is a close quarters weapon, which you can't reliably use to win against enemies with medium to long ranged weapons, at those ranges. The shotgun also lacks special uses, like an option for shooting around corners, which can be very useful. Or knocking an enemy around in the air to keep him from escaping and make his movement predictable for easier hits. That's versatility that the shotgun just can't deliver on its own.

(This is a big part of the problem with the Nex by the way, it has incredible range versatility, even though it was supposed to be a sniper gun that's specialized for long range. That in turn is a big part of why adjusting its ammo in various ways can't fix it.)

Ammo: Sadly, ammo is what makes the shotgun impossible to balance one way or the other. It simply never runs out of ammo. But if it did run out after say 8 shots, like the Rifle does, you might find that the 2.5.2 shotgun no longer feels overpowered to you. Because then you would have to pick up more ammo after the first one or two engagements, or less for longer ranged engagements.

IMO, the shotgun and nex should both be balanced to be on the same level as the other weapons, independently of ammo consumption. And then their ammo consumption should be balanced separately based primarily on their refire. They are the only remaining ammo consuming weapons that are noticeably imbalanced versus the rest.

Except for the shotgun, I say.

How so?

The shotgun should be as strong as any other weapon, otherwise you probably won't survive in a serious match unless you are lucky enough to get close to a balanced weapon before someone finds you. Because that someone will have an effective weapon, plus stacked hit points and maybe a good location or momentum or quad power.

Having a balanced weapon but with the usual limited ammo would give you a fighting chance to get to some of your own armor/health/weapons/ammo/quad.

[Lee_Stricklin]

I support a new ammo type for the nex. My guess is the new type of ammo would be rails.

Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

Oh god not this shit again, the current shotgun is just right in my opinion. It may be a starter weapon, but this Nexuiz's enforcer and it's supposed to do a good job of keeping you alive, though it's rarely the best weapon to use for most situations in spite being a good all-around-weapon.

[FraNcoTirAdoR]

lold @ shotgun underpowered too even in the 2.5.3 balance its a damn strong starting weapon.

The shotgun should be as strong as any other weapon, otherwise you probably won't survive in a serious match unless you are lucky enough to get close to a balanced weapon before someone finds you.

Cool, I don't even have to pick up any weapons because I start with a weapon as strong as any other, this is really fun, especially on a 8 playered DM match on warfare right? Minsta DM with shotgun ftw.



Anyways back to the topic: I completely support the idea of seperate nex-ammo type. When you write "onoz, no seperate ammo type, make it damage less, consume more ammo, make it range dependant, add more refire", you shouldnt only think in wide-open (bad) maps like greatwall and facing, where camping is still issue. The whole point of seperate ammo that it allows the mapper to decide where and how much camping he wants to allow on his maps: its also true for the stock closed maps too where nex is still damn strong, and a range dependant damage wouldnt make too much change.
The problem cant be solved so that we keep on nerfing and nerfing and nerfing and nerfing the weapon: this has been the tendency in the past 2-3 years, the dps of nex has been technically quartered, and the problem is still the same. There IS a real demand on a nex-like "sniping pwnzor weapon", especially for new players: we shouldnt remove this feature of the game, just limit it. Nexuiz is doing something like BFG would eat rocket ammo in quake (without ammo-stack limit), of course there are balance issues.

Talking about ammo: I would also recommend is to limit the amount of the maximum pickable ammo, I dont say it should be way too low, just permit people to stack up with 500 ammo at their base before they lead the attack. Ammo management is still not part of the game... It would also encourage the usage of less popular weapons, for example you have mortar and crylink, and you would run out of rocket ammo (that would happen a little more) you would just have to switch back to crylink more often.
Another benefit would be that on populated maps people wouldnt be able to collect selfishly all the weapons (for ammo supply) before teammates have any chance to pick it up. Im thinking on something like 100-100 cell and rocket limit and 300 on machinegun (so ~the amount of 1 weapon + 3 ammo boxes), so nothing way too drastical, but it would really improve playability in my opinion. Another reason: if nex would have seperate ammo, people would still be able to stack up with it by spending 2 minutes on a pickup place.