National colors on skins??

[cyan]

Is wales even a country ?

No. Here comes another trouble, what is country or not? Sealand?

Seriously i thought wales was a part of england since 1991

[vertexoteric]

wales isn't part of england, but it is part of great britain, which includes england, scotland, wales and northern ireland. here's a list of how many seats each has in parliament...
england - 529
scotland - 59
wales - 40
northern ireland - 18

so, wales isn't part of england, but england has control over it. understandibly enough a lot of welsh people are unhappy with this state of affairs. the same goes for a lot of scottish people too. there are also some english people like myself who aren't keen on the british thing either. i'd describe myself as an english republican, i'd like to see the dissolution of the monarchy and the british state, wales and scotland acknowledged as seperate countries with the right to self government and a general acceptance that the british empire was a bad move.

[Ed]

it is part of great britain, which includes england, scotland, wales and northern ireland.

Actually Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. It is part of the UK though as it is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the second longest name of any country.

here's a list of how many seats each has in parliament...
england - 529
scotland - 59
wales - 40
northern ireland - 18

What this does not show is the difference in population and the distribution of seats is quite unbalanced. Throughout the south of England many seats are over 60000 whereas in parts of Scotland their are seats with less than 20000 people. The Scottish and Welsh are overrepresented at Westminster as well as having their own regional assemblies which seek to waste public money. The inbalance can also be seen in England with many Northern areas being overrepresented, tipping the electoral balance in favour of Labour.

so, wales isn't part of england, but england has control over it.

Less then the Welsh have (per of population) control over us. I could easily use your argument to say that the countryside is controlled by townies who have absolutely no idea about rural affairs and seek to eradicate rural culture. Hence the countryside would have a right to independence by your argument.

In my view devolution is a stupid idea. I say this as a Briton who wouldn't want chunks of me ruled by different governments. It's bad enough that I am deemed the son of an immigrant just because my mother was born abroad (and while my grandfather was there on Government business) but having to be split nationalities would be just ridiculous.

The same argument for Scotland and Wales "being controlled by England" is also used by people to say we should pull out of the EU because we're "controlled by the Germans who we fought a war against and now we've surrendering to". Such arguments are stupid. We actually have a lot of influence in Europe and I rather happen to like our German friends.

Back to the topic:
I don't think national flags would be a good idea for a few reasons. The Internet is meant to be about breaking down international barriers. Anyone who's played much of Trackmania Nations will have noticed this terrible effect that happens when you get national colours used: you start getting xenophobic insults flying around with small children flaming each in ten different languages, all at the same time. It does nothing to help people play well against each other on balanced terms, it just balkanises everyone into national groups.

[vertexoteric]

"Actually Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain" - yep, you're right, northern ireland is part of the uk, not part of britain. my bad.

"What this does not show is the difference in population and the distribution of seats is quite unbalanced." - i agree, the disribution of population and seats may be unbalanced, but that wasn't my point. i was simply showing that england has a massive majority of seats, so it effectively runs the uk and wales and scotland don't really have a say.

"The Scottish and Welsh are overrepresented at Westminster as well as having their own regional assemblies which seek to waste public money." - wouldn't devolution solve this? the scottish, welsh and english could all go their seperate ways and make their own decisions.

"The same argument for Scotland and Wales "being controlled by England" is also used by people to say we should pull out of the EU because we're "controlled by the Germans who we fought a war against and now we've surrendering to". Such arguments are stupid. We actually have a lot of influence in Europe and I rather happen to like our German friends." - the english have a choice in whether or not we join europe. the welsh and scottish were forced to join the uk against their will by military conquest, so that's not really a good comparison. on the subject of anti-europe sentiment, it occurs to me that some people might think i'm insular and anti-europe. i'm actually pro-europe and i'd like to see england join, but i think wales and scotland should have the freedom to make that decision for themselves.

"I say this as a Briton who wouldn't want chunks of me ruled by different governments. It's bad enough that I am deemed the son of an immigrant just because my mother was born abroad (and while my grandfather was there on Government business) but having to be split nationalities would be just ridiculous." - interesting, earlier you were sounding fairly pro-europe and now you're getting worried by the concept of being ruled by different governments.

i've lived in ireland and that's shaped a lot of my views on nationality and devolution. since the republic of ireland gained independence they have done really well for themselves in europe and have a far better disposition towards the english now that we are equals. i'd just like to see the same happen for scotland and wales, if they were equals with the right to self government a lot of the old resentments would dissolve and i reckon we'd all be happier for it.

[cyan]

oh my offtopic

/golfclap to all of u

[torus]

That is a large block of text ^^

anyway... I think it would be awsome if players could choose a "badge" a la FEAR and halo, that they could be identified by- like an avatar, but plastered to their arm orsomething.

Like this:

[vertexoteric]

apologies for going off-topic.

i like the badge idea.

[Ed]

i agree, the disribution of population and seats may be unbalanced, but that wasn't my point. i was simply showing that england has a massive majority of seats, so it effectively runs the uk and wales and scotland don't really have a say.

You're forgetting party politics. If a bill is put before the house, mainstream politicians will largely go with their party line (this is what Whips are for) and in general, the opposition will side against the government. This can often leave the members ballot open to go either way based upon which way the remaining members go. Parties like the SNP and Plaid Cymru therefore have quite a lot of power in terms of what bills get passed as they can swing the vote.

Your argument that being a minority means you are powerless in a democracy is also wrong. By that argument I could say that everyone else in the country outnumbers me, hence I'm being oppressed. That's wrong. If you make a large enough number of small minorities unhappy then some time they will all vote against you together and you will lose.

Look at the current cabinet. How many are Scottish? You can not say that they are without power when the Chancellor and Home Secretary are Scottish and the Prime Minister does still have a Scottish name.

the english have a choice in whether or not we join europe. the welsh and scottish were forced to join the uk against their will by military conquest, so that's not really a good comparison.

Military conquest? Scotland actually became part of the UK by the Act of Union. That's different. Don't forget that for a time we were united under one King, James Stewart (IV of Scotland, I of England and Wales) and he was Scottish, brought in as a distant relative as the house of Tudor had no heirs.

It is also silly to think of Scotland as one nationality. Traditionally the highlanders (Gaelic) have fought with the lowlanders (Scots) more than they have united against the English. The idea of Scotland being independent as one country is based around modern sentiments of nationality just because they're the collective of bits beyond England. There are highlanders now who don't care about devolution because Edinburgh is still a long way away from them. It makes no difference to many of them. Modern Scottish school teaching has also caused part of the problem as they whitewash over any difference between the Scots and the Gaelic and just make England out to be the big enemy.

Wales was conquered so long ago that enough interbreeding has taken place that their so no longer a distinct Welsh people so they have no claim to independence. It's so long ago that the modern Welsh word for English is exactly the same as it was then, only it doesn't mean English, it means Saxon. Around 30 years ago there were extremists burning down holiday cottages in Wales to scare off outsiders and many of them weren't even very Welsh, the leader was in fact a Polish immigrant. Welsh nationalism has largely built up again during the 20th century as a backlash rather than as a movement that has always existed.

We never invaded Ireland either, we were invited there to defend them against the Danes. Norman nobles who went there to lead the English armies against the Danes settled and interbred and it was then the descendants of those nobles who started trying to fight for Ireland for themselves, despite Ireland never having been one country at any time in the past.

interesting, earlier you were sounding fairly pro-europe and now you're getting worried by the concept of being ruled by different governments.

You've completely failed to understand this sentiment. I have no problem with Europe and I find no problem in being labeled 'a European' as I come under that category. I have a problem with Britain being separated because then I could not be one 'British' nationality. It feels terrible to be labeled as English as I'm not, I am British. Hence I would hate for different parts of identity to be ruled by different governments. That is what I was saying.

i've lived in ireland and that's shaped a lot of my views on nationality and devolution.

Their independence movement in the early 20th century was lead by a man who didn't even have an Irish surname and what happened after they got their independence? He ordered his thugs to assassinate his former friend, the leader of the Irish army, Micheal Collins, a man with an English surname.

since the republic of ireland gained independence they have done really well for themselves in europe

Thanks to EU money that is. That's now drying up as eastern EU states get more of the cash. Watch it's GDP plummet in the next few years.

i'd just like to see the same happen for scotland and wales, if they were equals

They already are than equals. They are not dictated over, instead they have far higher numbers of MP's by head of population than the rest of the UK, a disparity that Labour has exploited to win larger majorities as these smaller seats are ones it is quite strong in.

You have also forgotten one of the main reasons why Labour likes devolution: they want to take power away from local government by introducing regional government. Labour can't stand County Councils as they are too independent so what they do is introduce an intermediate tier and transfer some of the power of county councils up to regional government. This idea seems now to have failed as the North East (a traditional Labour heartland) turned down (quite rightly) a regional assembly. Why do they have problems with county councils? It's partly because Labour is largely a metropolitan party and the Shire Counties it traditionally does very badly in and therefore needs some way of controlling them, one way is by a region where they can push things through by using stronger urban Labour support. This does take power away from people as people typically can contact their county councilor on a personal basis which just isn't the case with a regional assembly.

So devolution is not about giving power back to the people. It is about taking power away from people by diverting it to an intermediate tier of government which they can more easily control.

[vertexoteric]

very interesting points. is there an off-topic part of the forum where we could continue the conversation.

[Genegineer]

And now on to the weather .......


Ok, the badges idea sounds ok. Clan based or other?