Mappers challenge: New take on an old map.

[Dokujisan]

I've had an idea brewing in my head for a while about having a new mappers challenge. I know there were a couple contests for mapping before, but this one is a little unique.

Basically, the idea is like this: We (the community) select a popular map that people like (perhaps vote on it) and then we start discussing bullet points that make that map unique. Then we get mappers to make their version of a map that is inspired by this map and shares many of those attributes.

The idea was finalized by seeing this recent mapfrom Giuseppe which tends to share a lot of features with Facing Worlds, but it's still a very unique map in itself. I thought that was pretty cool because it allows for a new take on the Facing Worlds gameplay (Facing worlds is cool, but if I fall in that "vagina" hole in the ground one more time...) I can only imagine what types of maps could be created and inspired by attributes of runningman, mikectf, soylent, aggressor, etc.

The reason I think this is cool is because some of the existing Nexuiz maps are fun, but they are getting a bit old to play. I've played MikeCTF so many times now, and I enjoy it, but I'd love to see another map that looks different and shares similar features. Same goes for runningman, lavaflag, etc.

Once a map is chosen, then we'll set a deadline for submitting maps for the challenge. Then the community will vote on which one was the best of the bunch.

What do ya think?

[cortez]

many nexuiz maps are bad to modify.

so no to this idea

[Byrned]

I have to say I agree. Itd be cool to have some sort of competition/comparison of entries made by mappers, and then the winner could be chosen by vote. I likey da idea.

[Strahlemann]

I don't really get the idea.
You want mappers to take a look into other maps, to get them inspired working on a map with the same theme? /design ? /layout ? /all of that ?
Or do you want specific maps to be rebuilt ? /get layout changes ? /both ?

I've played MikeCTF so many times now, and I enjoy it, but I'd love to see another map that looks different and shares similar features.

Sounds like you'd like to have some layout elements of MikeCTF used in another map.
A lot of mappers use elements of other maps, and mix them together as a new one. There are basic layout elements like atriums, double-atriums, hallways, caves, towers, hills etc. a mapper can choose from to get a basic layout and to get an idea how the final map plays. Creating a completely new map from scratch always uses elements of other maps in some way. So i'd prefer to see mappers create new layouts with unique gameplay-elements rather than trying to copy complete layout elements of another map.
A straightforward ctf-mapping contest seems more like what you're looking for.

[Dokujisan]

I'll try to make the idea more clear.

A lot of mappers experiment with map layouts, which is great. However, such experimentation often results in maps that end up not being used because they don't have good playability. In the Nexuiz Ninjaz map repository, there are just shy of 300 maps (and that doesn't include maps that come with Nexuiz itself). Out of all of those maps, there are maybe 30 that have characteristics that most people regularly enjoy.

The point of this challenge would be to point out the elements of successful maps that people enjoy and use that as a guideline for creating some new maps. If done correctly, this won't result in any cookie-cutter maps or clones. There are likely thousands of maps that could be made that have the same general feel and playability as Runningman, for example, without being a clone of Runningman.

I mentioned that map from Giuseppe as an example because it happens to share a lot of features with Facing Worlds, but it still retains it's own unique feel.

As another example, I'll start with a breakdown of MikeCTF.

symmetrical
enough size to handle 5v5 or more, comfortably
Two or more levels
A mix of open rooms and passageways.
Pathways interconnect at various points
Major resource in open area near the middle of the map
Base is mostly open and the flag is on a pedestal or an upper level
Multiple exits/entrances to base
Limited weapons inside base.
Good resources just outside of base so defense can't camp easily.


Notice that those same features nearly describe Accident also, but you can't say that Accident is a clone of MikeCTF. It's a unique map that happens to share a lot of features with MikeCTF. A lot of the people that like MikeCTF also like Accident.

Moonstone also shares some features with MikeCTF, except for the multiple levels part (at least not in the same way). It's also very close in features to MikeCTF, but it's certainly not a clone. It's also a little bit bigger and has a different theme (natural).

Hopefully, that gives a clearer idea of what I'm aiming for. I've seen a handful of new mappers recently getting started. A secondary benefit is that they could participate in this challenge. It could give them some guidance on types of gameplay/layout that have been successful already. It would be interesting to see what map variations would result from such a challenge, and from people with different experience levels with map editing. We might find that a new mapper might come up with an amazing map when given the right outline to follow.

[zuriastrad]

to me mapping is a combination of two very different roles. firstly there is the designer, who has an understanding of gameplay and how to make a map balanced. secondly there is the maker, who has the technical skills to actually make the map. ideally a mapper should be good at both roles, but this isn't always the case. i, for example, have a reasonable understanding on how to use gtkradiant and blender to create maps, but i have a very weak understanding of what actually makes a good map, so i need help from those who do understand gameplay and balance.

however, this can be a double edged sword because once you start accepting advice on what makes a good map then you run the risk of having every would-be designer coming out of the woodwork and arguing about how best to improve the map. every change the maker tries to implement enrages someone else, it degenerates into bickering and the maker gives up. (speaking from experience here).

this is why i like Dokujisan's idea. it has the advantage of putting technically minded mappers in contact with people who understand how maps should work, but the crucial difference is that discussion takes place before the mapping begins. the maker can decide whether to get involved based on how the planning stage goes. if the planning stage descends into petty bickering then the maker can save itself a lot of wasted time by not getting involved. if, on the other hand, the discussion leads to a clear, well defined plan then the maker will be a lot more likely to get involved.

[PinkRobot]

When I glanced over the title and first post of this thread I thought you wanted to name one map and let every mapper make a new updated version, any way they wished. This idea really spoke to. In fact, I think I prefer it to the actual idea !

Downer-reloaded
Dismal-reloaded
etc.

We have such good mappers here, there is guaranteed to be at least one version superior to the original map so that it will make it into the next Nexuiz release.

So far about my own idea about it, now, your plan: I think it is too vague, too broad. Every serious map I have made so far has been based on another map. I could easily supply you with 3 to 4 maps that fit this description. I even made a map a little while ago that had the working title Stormkeep Junior.

So I strongly suggest to either make your own idea more specific [like name a few maps YOU like, that the new map has to be based on] or consider my idea above. Mr Awesome also mentioned this idea a few posts up, I think he would be up for this too.

[Dokujisan]

It's simply another mapping challenge, but this time it is based upon features of proven successful maps. The whole premise of this challenge is that the community (non-mappers) would point out features of maps that they enjoy. It's a mapping challenge based upon open dialogue between the community and the mappers since the community helps define the guidelines of the challenge.

I don't think the idea is too vague at all.

Every serious map I have made so far has been based on another map

Yeah, but did you get the community to help establish features that you incorporated into your maps?

So I strongly suggest to either make your own idea more specific [like name a few maps YOU like

Well, I wouldn't be picking any maps. I would probably setup a poll with a bunch of popular maps and let the community vote on which map to use as the base for the challenge. If this challenge becomes successful, then we can do another challenge later to cover other maps.

[Strahlemann]

Hm.
Something like: Mix layout elements from runningman with the visual style of Farewell, make it a ctf, and there should be a huge gap you have to cross via a bridge ?

I really can't tell if such a challenge would work out. I haven't tried sth. like that before.
The best way to find out would be if you just go ahead and start it
But i think that the poll will get kinda big. A better way would be to collect suggestions on gameplay elements (like the gap or the bridge) the visual style and everything else that's worth mentioning, and keeping track of this in the first post (of the newly created thread )

Then you may come up with good suggestions as a guideline for a new map (depending on the quality and quantity of the suggestions of course). Everyone could vote for his favorite suggestions then. Man we need a multiple-choice-poll-system

/me hides from the upcoming war between people who'd like to have a 2nd facing world and people who prefer anything but that

[Dokujisan]

The best way to find out would be if you just go ahead and start it

Ok, two things.

1) I'd like to know which mappers will participate (I hope Cortez reconsiders)

2) Everyone start suggesting maps to add to the voting poll (your favorite maps). Yes, the poll will be somewhat long, but hopefully won't go over 20 or so maps.

I'm already adding these...

MikeCTF
Lavaflag
Facing Worlds
Runningman
Aggressor
Soylent

First we'll create map list for the poll, and then I'll start a thread to do the voting. Once a map is chosen, then I'll create a thread for open discussion to break that map down into its enjoyable design elements. Then I'll compile some bullet points based on that discussion to create the final challenge guidelines.