The ai Frontier - My ups and downs

[halogene]

Just for the records, I have been following this topic and I am really quite amazed about the outcome so far. The new flag Model is absolutely fantastic! Two suggestions I would have:

1) The visibility of the FC is absolutely essential. Maybe something can be done with some kind of glow or corona? Or with a very bright red/blue light ball in the center of the flags? I also like the idea of the smoke trail, but I don't know how much this would affect server/client performance (if at all) and what happens to it in the various detail settings.

2) The flag model as such is pretty and fits with the style of Nexuiz and all, but when someone is carrying it, I feel it looks somehow odd that it just "is" there, without no connection to the flag carrier at all. I know how difficult it is to keep the flag somewhat within the bounding box, but I'll say that IF it is possible to change the flag model upon pickup/drop event, then it could transform into some kind of backpack with the three flag thingies sticking out of it. I know Nexuiz abandoned realism long ago but regardless of realism I think that might even look good.

These are just my two cents here, since Doku said you needed some more input. It's rather brainstormy and not really thought out in all details but anyway.

[ai]

It's not the bounding box that is an issue (for the most part). It's that no flag models can be done that are taller than the player models or even flag models that are rather thick (going from the players back and out). As the original flags rarely are bigger than the players and it's fairly thin. It goes out a bit in the sides but that cannot be too big either. Now the thing is, you would need to basically create flag models similar to the current ones. Otherwise if you do not do that you would run into issues such as the flag poking through walls. The bounding box, I believe is already good. You cannot capture the flag through walls and that's a good thing. If you would change the bounding box you would need to adjust maps accordingly. But limiting yourself to the bounding box for models would limit your flag concepts. Not to mention, limited visibility of the flag carrier for certain flag concepts.
Basically what I'm saying is that, if you would stick with the current bounding box you could NOT create a flag that:
1. Is too tall (taller than the player models)
2. Is too broad
3. Is too thick

Thus these limitation basically say, you can either 'modify' the look of the current flag models, or create a squarish flag model in the same size as the current ones.

------

Esteel said something that a smoke trail wouldn't be too hard to make, as certain weapons has that.
Adding 'glow' or 'corona' to the FC wouldn't be good as those people who doesn't have those settings one (like me) wouldn't even see that. Unless it's made an exception for the FC.

@Halogene & @alien: Yup for now the models just 'sits' on the player, however does the old ones do that too? If not I could use that system.
However Alien, I've been thinking about that bone thing you proposed. How would you implement it? You said something that if the player crouched and stood the flag would move along his body. That I'm clear on. But introducing that would also possibly introduce new issues where the flag model would poke through walls as well. As the flag would move around.

Now I'm all for trying that anyway, I don't think it would be too big of an issue. Just thinking ahead.

[C.Brutail]

I also dislike the 3 or 4 sided flags,and I miss the Nexuiz logo too.I couldn't test the model online,because Green's server was always full.
esteel's idea is good about the particles,the rocket model always leaves a smoke trail behind (just look àt the PB mod ).But this has a flow too, this requires engine changes again,as we know that particles can be turned off,so we're still at this problem,what if someone disables the particles?
(tbc.)

[C.Brutail]

Imho it's better to change the code so that the flags leave a few particles behind,as that might be less stress for older hardware.
On the another issue,I think the best would be to do animation cycles like the flag is actually attached to the back of the player.Note,that this must be done only once,because iirc all player models use the same animations.
How to do the basement stuff?Well,in case there's already a need to change the code (tbc.)

[C.Brutail]

the visibility of the FC,it won't be hard to code that a new,basement-less model is used to carry,and the other one for the dropped/respawned.
Back on the visibility problem,don't forget ai,you've only made a plain texture yet,but no glowmaps,animmaps or glossmaps!
Those will help the recognition too.
Sorry for the triple post,I'm sending these from my cell,and it has a character limit per textboxes

[ai]

We could always have a vote if people would like 1 or 3 flags. So far I believe it's tied (I like 3 for visibility, morfar share my opinion. And you and Z like 1. Only 4 people ). Anyway, you miss the Nexuiz logo? You mean the cogwheel thing or the actual image on the flags? The logo I used on those flags is this one made by Sant: http://ouns.wikispaces.com/icons
Only modified by colors and such.

Well, now I never have had any thought of this flag being in an official release, one could always hope. What I'm saying is that I don't want to create more work for the devs unless it will be a milestone for future flags. I.e. if they implement smoke trail it would of course be there even if a flag model wasn't present. Thus, focusing on anything else but the models in this thread I believe is useless unless it's official that this model will be official. Cause I don't want to do something to the model which never will be implemented in the end anyway.
All I can do is my best to make the flag the community wants it without any special things like smoke trails.

Now, I could release a version where only one flag is present instead of 3, thus you guys can try out both versions and see which one you like the best, then come back and make a vote someplace. How does that sound?

EDIT: Well you do have a point with those gloss/glow maps. But I still wonder if it will be enough. Well I suppose I have to do them and then decide

[C.Brutail]

I miss the cogwheels
On that official/not official thing:slightly ot here,but imho all devs will accept this as the new flag model,and since the developer team is almost the same as the actual players,I don't think making and sending in a patch would be so hard.If I'd code,I'd write the patch as we speak
/me pokes esteel,tZork,div0 or any other code monkey's out there

[ai]

Ok, with the cogwheels, you mean the frist design I had or some whole different? Cause I brought back those cogwheels from the other design. These latest images are just for show. The flags aren't like that.

[C.Brutail]

The cogwheels from the first design you've had
Btw I don't see any images at all,cause I've blocked them on Opera Mini

[Alien]

To C.Brutail:

You can test the flag locally.

To ai:

@Halogene & @alien: Yup for now the models just 'sits' on the player, however does the old ones do that too? If not I could use that system.

What do you mean by sits on? Flags position is set 20 units away from player origin, iirc.
So it is basically glued to the player. And I think old/current flags fit inside bb of player, that's why they can't poke through solid brushes.

However Alien, I've been thinking about that bone thing you proposed. How would you implement it? You said something that if the player crouched and stood the flag would move along his body. That I'm clear on. But introducing that would also possibly introduce new issues where the flag model would poke through walls as well. As the flag would move around.

I would use set_attach() (i think it is called like this) function doing similar thing to how the weapon is attached to the right hand of the model. It would work if in all cases flag would fit inside bb. With this flag, the problem would still remain. It does not mean that the flag is bad, it is very good, we just need to improve the system.

BTW, q3 had wider and higher flag than some of the player models (eg. orbb). Yet they (flags) didn't poke through walls. I could check how flag position was changing when player touched the wall when I'll be back from work.

Ai, don't give up. If your flag would be finished, I believe it will be definitelty included. There isn't any other model which could compete with yours yet.