Humans

[AnArKiSt]

We also have sheep, who just stfu and do what they're told/led to do, with little questioning.

Examples of where this is IMHO a problem include:

1) Religious evangelism is a scam where practioners prey upon the docile, gullible, and weak minded to join their cults. Evangelists may also try to scam more intelligent people into beliving their lies and buying their "salvation", one Sunday at a time.

2) Hip-Hop culture is at this point a large problem (not nearly as large as the first, ofc) because of sheep-minded people as well. It was all over the place in the juvenille detention facillities I spent around 3 years of my childhood in. Those stupid kids were blasting bad rap music, talkin' like 'day so hood and ganksta, and wearing their pants around their waists, and getting into lots of fights with each other, sometimes placing me in situations where I had to physically defend myself. I was one of the few white kids there, so as soon as somebody called me "cracker", they all did. They were obviously using TV, music, and the "cool kids", as role models to their own detriment.

That should be enough for you to get my point, and even find more examples on your own.

[Flying Steel]

Evolution does not know what is good or bad. I think you're talking about Evolution by Natural Selection, where the best treat usually survives better than bad treats in the long run.

Not really, the term "Natural Selection" is too narrow, because now you have influences that most people would not term "Natural". When I say Evolution, I mostly mean Evolution via Evolutionary Forces in general.

But civilized humans does not evolve by natural selection anymore. There is no selection at all afaik (except maybe healthy/beautiful people have a higher change of getting children).

With birth control, it is now probably the other way around.

But I do think we will get smarter and live longer, not by evolution, but thanks to education, vaccines and good health care.

Knowledge maybe, thanks only to the internet, but we depend on vaccines at this point do to population density and health care is a band aid on the severed limb of our poisoned, nutrient poor and diminishing food supply.

Humans are special though. We are the only species with foresight.
That does of course not gives the right to be cruel to other animals.

I don't think there is much evidence that we are special in terms of foresight, versus other complex species.

[Flying Steel]

We also have sheep, who just stfu and do what they're told/led to do, with little questioning.

Examples of where this is IMHO a problem include:

1) Religious evangelism is a scam where practioners prey upon the docile, gullible, and weak minded to join their cults. Evangelists may also try to scam more intelligent people into beliving their lies and buying their "salvation", one Sunday at a time.

2) Hip-Hop culture is at this point a large problem (not nearly as large as the first, ofc) because of sheep-minded people as well. It was all over the place in the juvenille detention facillities I spent around 3 years of my childhood in. Those stupid kids were blasting bad rap music, talkin' like 'day so hood and ganksta, and wearing their pants around their waists, and getting into lots of fights with each other, sometimes placing me in situations where I had to physically defend myself. I was one of the few white kids there, so as soon as somebody called me "cracker", they all did. They were obviously using TV, music, and the "cool kids", as role models to their own detriment.

That should be enough for you to get my point, and even find more examples on your own.

I really don't think it is that simple.

With #1 you have people trying to fill up their empty lives with a story, entertainment and a supporting community. They pay for it, but while they might be as dumb as stumps, they know exactly what they are buying; they aren't victims.

With #2 you have probably a two sided culture. One's just an ultimately small sub-culture that isn't super friendly, that sounds like that was what you experienced.

The other is a massive marketing campaign with alot of money behind it from an array of consumer 'luxury' corporations, is what I'll call them. They just advertise and sell gangsta to dumb little shits in massive quantities. And this saturation marketing might make the above sub-culture feel a little more special and important, until the money moves on to the next generation's fad of choice.

But neither here are victims either. They know what they are buying and continue to do so because if fills in a gap, perhaps social for the former, perhaps internal for the later. Cephalopods and Vertebrates, including dumb people and smart people, all have the ability to learn from their past experiences. So if people try something, and then like it enough to keep trying it, they aren't fools for it or victims, they have just decided that that is what they want.

[morfar]

Evolution does not know what is good or bad. I think you're talking about Evolution by Natural Selection, where the best treat usually survives better than bad treats in the long run.

Not really, the term "Natural Selection" is too narrow, because now you have influences that most people would not term "Natural". When I say Evolution, I mostly mean Evolution via Evolutionary Forces in general.

Evolution does not not know what genes are good or bad. Evolution is a mutation that has passed on one generation.
Indirectly Natural Selection has selected genes in nature that are good. Mutations does not have a plan.

But civilized humans does not evolve by natural selection anymore. There is no selection at all afaik (except maybe healthy/beautiful people have a higher change of getting children).

With birth control, it is now probably the other way around.

Birth control is not contributing to evolution at all.

But I do think we will get smarter and live longer, not by evolution, but thanks to education, vaccines and good health care.

Knowledge maybe, thanks only to the internet, but we depend on vaccines at this point do to population density and health care is a band aid on the severed limb of our poisoned, nutrient poor and diminishing food supply.

That's the most pessimistic view I ever read I think. haha.

Humans are special though. We are the only species with foresight.
That does of course not gives the right to be cruel to other animals.

I don't think there is much evidence that we are special in terms of foresight, versus other complex species.

There no evidence other animals know they are going to die.
Everything points to the fact they only act on instinct and live in the presence. Any other claim needs extraordinary evidence.

[Flying Steel]

Evolution does not not know what genes are good or bad. Evolution is a mutation that has passed on one generation.

I thought that was "an evolution".

Birth control is not contributing to evolution at all.

It influences the direction of evolution. Those who produce fewer or no offspring in a world where all offspring have the same chance of survival, will become less and less prevalent. So from an evolutionary standpoint, all that matters in advanced societies is how many offspring you produce. Thus evolution continues.

That's the most pessimistic view I ever read I think. haha.

How long have you been using internet forums for now?

Anyways, what I meant was without vaccines we would truly have something to fear when it came to pathogens, no one would be getting crazy over pig flu and aids. Just think about how many unique people you come in contact with on a daily basis, versus how many you probably would have during the mesolithic. We depend on vaccines.

With the food supply, you have pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, being used on and genetically engineered into the food supply in many parts of the world. You have what is effectively subsoil being used to grow crops because of a temporary access to intense irrigation and "tripple 19" fertilizer that doesn't replenish anywhere near the variety of minor elements needed for real nutrition.

There no evidence other animals know they are going to die.
Everything points to the fact they only act on instinct and live in the presence. Any other claim needs extraordinary evidence.

Exactly. That is why it is such a good thing for us that we are animals, so that we never have to face our own death.

[Mr. Bougo]

Birth control is not contributing to evolution at all.

I believe he was talking about eugenism... That thing that will destroy humanity, if the climate doesn't kill us before. Heh, that's what you get for fighting against nature :p

[ai]

Exactly. That is why it is such a good thing for us that we are animals, so that we never have to face our own death.

Um? You will face your own death when you die.
I also believe that animals know they can die as much as I believe there is life on other planets, which means 100%.
However, certain insects maybe doesn't know they can as they are of a different buildup than animals and function in a totally different way. But I'm not saying all insects are clueless.

[The mysterious Mr. 4m]

This discussion is meaningless and only partially amusing. Everybody knows robots crush hu-mans!

[AnArKiSt]

And bombs crush them all.

[Flying Steel]

Exactly. That is why it is such a good thing for us that we are animals, so that we never have to face our own death.

Um? You will face your own death when you die.

Can you prove or provide evidence of that?

Because morfar implied that it would take incredible evidence to prove that any animals other than humans can ever "know they are going to die". Whatever exactly that means (what does it mean to know death?), he would need to show at least the same evidence that people have that capacity, otherwise ignorance of our own death applies to us as well.

I also believe that animals know they can die as much as I believe there is life on other planets, which means 100%.

But there seems to be alot of people who either won't believe that because that makes them feel differently about what they are. . .

Or much more likely, it is inconvenient when they pretend to be peace-loving, unbiasedly compassionate well educated individuals, who just happen to be meat-eating animal-testing-augmented-health-care supporting socialists.

In short (as possible), people's complicated modern ideological personal identities are two self-contradicting for them to be totally honest with themselves while remaining the way they are. So they aren't honest with themselves, because it's the path of least resistance.